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Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #150 on: October 13, 2007, 07:20:07 AM »
Let me ask you 1500 or so golfers - would you rather play day in day out, a JN or TD course?  If character, for almost every you and I, is your measure than Doak home runs nearly every time.  

JC
Jonathan,

My wife would prefer to play a nicely manicured Jack Nicklaus course any day than a real linksy shaggy looking Tom Doak course (no pun intended).

Sorry..

I would enjoy both and try to learn from both.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #151 on: October 13, 2007, 09:08:33 AM »
Jonathon,
   I, too, prefer a finely manicure Nicklaus course over a Doak because I’m not a big fan of blind shots, crazy greens contours that makes for very slow speeds or shaggy bunkers. I like to see my options in front of me and let myself make the golf shots.  It is a nice change from time to time, but working on a golf course, I like to see the fine details and well manicured grounds.

Jerry,
  Actually, JN is VERY much responsibly for the higher level of conditioning that we see today. He demanded it and in the last several years, the PGA Tour players have commented that Muirfield Village is the best conditioned course that they play all year. Part of that is attributed to Paul B. Latshaw and his staff, but also the backing of JN and the membership. After Mike McBride, former superintendent at MV took at position with Nicklaus design, Latshaw came over to Muirfield Village after the 2003 PGA Championship at Oak Hill where Nicklaus commented,”I spoke to several players who were in the PGA field, and to a person, they remarked on the fantastic condition of the golf course at Oak Hill," Nicklaus said. "August is one of the most difficult times of year for turf management, so to hear such high praises of Oak Hill is a true compliment to Paul's ability. The climates in Rochester and Dublin are similar, but more important; the high standards we set for Muirfield Village and the Memorial are very much like any venue hosting a major championship.”
 Augusta was and has always been one of the best conditioned courses on tour because they had the funds. When MV opened, ANGC had competition for the finest conditioned course in America. In fact, way back in 1985, Golf Digest had MV rated #1 in conditioning by .25 points over ANGC. MV was finely manicured the day it opened.

Jim,
  Keep in mind that TD is a panelist and former editor of Golf Magazine.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
 
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #152 on: October 13, 2007, 09:17:45 AM »
I finally read this thread and would offer the following observations:

I agree with Nicklaus' statement about design and influence.  I don't know that he's necessarily been as successful as one who takes this approach, but I agree that his "competition" -- the way he uses the term; I would put it another way myself -- should only be the land.

I don't think his comments should be construed as insulting.  I just think he misses a very large point of golf course design.  The majority of golfers are not trying to match their game to his vis-a-vis course design.  Moreover, TD, BC and BC are three different kinds of players, and their designs certainly aren't all about aesthetics.  Perhaps Nicklaus has been so isolated from the mainstream as not to understand this.  Quite frankly, however, after reading Building Sebonack, I am somewhat surprised by the comments.

TEPaul

Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #153 on: October 13, 2007, 09:19:07 AM »
"...My competition is nature."--Nicklaus

"I cannot compete with nature, and it would only showcase my futility if I tried. So I  try to cooperate." --Coore in Stephen Goodwin's wonderful Dream Golf

Just wonderful quotations and probably very apropos of how each of them approaches golf course architecture.  ;)

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #154 on: October 13, 2007, 09:32:01 AM »
"...My competition is nature."--Nicklaus

"I cannot compete with nature, and it would only showcase my futility if I tried. So I  try to cooperate." --Coore in Stephen Goodwin's wonderful Dream Golf

One can compete with Nature, but you better not try to fool Mother Nature.  Remember Katrina?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #155 on: October 13, 2007, 09:33:02 AM »
Most of this thread is still much ado about nothing.

However, I am getting tired of hearing Jeff Brauer speculate about the differences between Jack Nicklaus' approach to business and my own, and use the fact that I'm not on site all the time to imply that I'm not there more than Jack.  That's just total bullshit, and it's all the worse because I think Jeff knows it it's b.s.  At Sebonack [which I'm using as an example because it's the only concrete example I have for Jack, NOT because I'm trying to take more than 50% credit for it], I was there every single one of the six times Jack was there during construction, but I was there for 4-5 days at a time, instead of 3/4 of a day.

Now, Jack truly believes that in those six days he created all the strategy [and I created the "look"], and my understanding is that that's about all the time he would have been there if I hadn't been around.  And I don't think he does the routings on any of his own designs, he just approves his associates' work.  So, from his perspective, I filled the same role at Sebonack that his associates normally do, and he should get all the credit.

Jack knows a lot about design, but I don't think he has any idea how much work it takes to build a truly great golf course.  He played golf all by himself and he thinks he can design that way, too.

As for the earlier discussion about understanding golf shots, all I'll say is that if Jack thinks I don't understand them, he'd say the same about the other 1,499 posters here, so you're wasting your breath.

And Brian:  I think you should let your wife play one of my courses before you make such a blanket statement.  I guarantee you I've thought more about how she'll play the course than Jack does.

wsmorrison

Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #156 on: October 13, 2007, 09:39:31 AM »
I can't understand why there is such a detailed discussion about a self-serving soundbite comment made by one competitor about another.  It wasn't a noble act but it happens all the time in business and hardly merits worry or other considerations.  We get very polarized on this website about certain concepts and individuals and overly critical or defensive at times.

I seriously wonder if Jeff Brauer would defend Nicklaus so vigorously if he didn't have a Tartan jacket or if Tom Doak took to wearing one.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 09:43:23 AM by Wayne Morrison »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #157 on: October 13, 2007, 09:42:17 AM »
The thing that strikes me odd here is that JN did lousy work early on and today, his work is vastly improved.

His skills as a golfer did not improve over that period of time, so how does he account for that?

Secondly, I'm sure all of his associates visit courses all over the world, so perhaps they are really doing the heavy lifting and JN is just pretending to be the architect of record.

Consider the number of courses JN has in various stages of development, it would be impossible for JN to spend much time at each.

To JN's credit, his work is way better but his arrogance turns me off.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #158 on: October 13, 2007, 09:48:33 AM »
This thread highlights how difficult it is to work with another architect, one of the things that strikes me as a bit weird is how JN can think he put all the strategy there when TD did the routing. Whilst I can accept that a routing is not 'ALL', it does represent a fair amount of the actual design of a golf course. TD will be able to answer this one, but I suspect within his routing he thought about strategic elements and routed accordingly.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #159 on: October 13, 2007, 10:06:05 AM »
TD,

Perhaps I should have phrased my original post to say "on some projects" or whatever, and I did imply your ratio was better, even if by a tad.  And later, I did say specifically that your site visit ratio was better.  I think it has to be because you started the biz with a gca mentality. I have always felt, although JN gets far more involved than most pros, that they somehow do equate the design biz with an endorsement mentality, i.e., would I make more money on outings or owning a dry cleaner.  I doubt either you or I would ever get close to that train of thought.

Wayne,

The ASGCA thing has come up twice now, and I really don't think so.  My thinking about why some of this thread rankles me crstalized yesterday when I left the office and picked up my mail, including the new Golf Inc. where JN was named the most powerful man in golf.  I think he has earned that unofficial title through years of being an ambassador for golf and generally comporting himself with the class expected of a professional golfer or business man.

I can't imagine another golf oriented website that would show him such little respect, regardless of his comments on Mr. Doak.  Just from my perspective in the golf business, it drives home for me how out of touch this merry band of 1502 golf architecture crusaders can be with mainstream thinking, not the other way around.  

When I made the comment about "I'm here from gca to interview you" I wasn't kidding. I am sure JN knows about this place from Jim Lipe, and knows what to expect from them when they come calling! ;)  While some of you are aghast, I wouldn't be shocked if his attitude was roughly equivalent to a horse swatting away a pesky fly.

I also find it laughable that most on this site call for gca's to offer honest criticisms of each other, and then when JN does so, he is mostly classified as arrogant, out of touch, and generally pig headed and wrong.  It simply strikes me that a broad cross section of this board has one view on gca - that just a few architects "get it" and can go to great lengths to twist any feature (which discussing would be appropriate) or offhand comment (which, IMHO isn't worth the bandwidth) to fit their pre-concieved views.

That said, I still enjoy the place, am not angry at anyone for their opinions (vive la difference!) and am sorry if I have torqued of TD.  No comments were meant to disparage him or his work, just to tweak the prevailing attitude here.

I mean, even a gca needs to have a hobby! ;)



 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 10:07:32 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim Nugent

Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #160 on: October 13, 2007, 10:15:37 AM »
Jim,
  Keep in mind that TD is a panelist and former editor of Golf Magazine.


So is Gary Player, lead member of the "Jack Nicklaus is the greatest designer" fan club.  

 

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #161 on: October 13, 2007, 10:18:27 AM »
Jim,
  Point missed...TD has the ability to vote for his own work...Maybe Gary didn't place enough ballots because I don't see his stuff on there....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

John Kavanaugh

Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #162 on: October 13, 2007, 10:31:20 AM »
So who knows more about driving a car, Richard Petty or John Kavenaugh? No contest, really. John isn't much of a driver at all is he?

So if you want to build an asphalt road, I'm sure John could build you a pretty road but if you want a great road then it should be built by a great driver. Nobody else can understand all the things that a great road needs to be.

Richard Petty is far more qualified to build a NASCAR track than me.  I build soccer mom roads.  This is a great Doak/Nicklaus analogy.  I just don't know racing strategy no matter how many races I watch or recreational miles I drive.

Jim Nugent

Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #163 on: October 13, 2007, 10:55:21 AM »

I can't imagine another golf oriented website that would show him such little respect, regardless of his comments on Mr. Doak.  Just from my perspective in the golf business, it drives home for me how out of touch this merry band of 1502 golf architecture crusaders can be with mainstream thinking, not the other way around.  

I also find it laughable that most on this site call for gca's to offer honest criticisms of each other, and then when JN does so, he is mostly classified as arrogant, out of touch, and generally pig headed and wrong.  It simply strikes me that a broad cross section of this board has one view on gca - that just a few architects "get it" and can go to great lengths to twist any feature (which discussing would be appropriate) or offhand comment (which, IMHO isn't worth the bandwidth) to fit their pre-concieved views.
 

Jeff, this merry band of 1502 gca enthusiasts are not that far out of touch with mainstream thinking.  The courses that top nearly every list of greats are the ones most posters here love.  Jack has no courses up there.  That alone is reason to question his analysis of golf course architecture.  

No problem with Jack giving honest critiques.  That doesn't mean I, or others on this site, must agree with him.  And when we disagree on GCA.com, we argue over all sorts of matters, big and small.  Jack leaves himself wide open to critiques, or criticisms, when he puts down every other living golf course architect, for reasons that sound self-serving.  

More than a little ironic that several of these architects have designed courses much higher rated and thought of than any Jack's team has produced.  Reminds me a little of Sergio or Sabbatini making their snarky Tiger comments.    

Let me ask you, Jeff, the same question I've asked several times on this board.  Do you consider Jack a real golf course architect, considering he never has routed a single golf course?  I don't think I do.  He's put together a great design factory, and an excellent business.  But he's never designed a course by himself.  He seems more like an editor to me.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought routing was the single most important part of golf course architecture.  

Doak said he is sure JN could route courses, but still, from afar, I wonder.  Nicklaus would have to dramatically change the way he does business.  Instead of the 2 or so days he now puts into a project, he'd have to spend many more.  I'd be real interested to see what he could turn out, if he actually did that.  

One final observation.  I came away from Nicklaus' comments feeling kind of bad for his children.  They grew up in the shadow of the greatest golfer ever.  Now he still rules the roost, as they follow in his footsteps again.  They may be very happy and well adjusted.  Just seems like they never took the chance to fly the coup.  

Jim Nugent

Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #164 on: October 13, 2007, 10:57:15 AM »
Jim,
  Point missed...TD has the ability to vote for his own work...Maybe Gary didn't place enough ballots because I don't see his stuff on there....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Anthony, according to GM's website, Tom cannot vote for his own work.  Here's the quote from them...

"To keep it fair, course architects and course owners on the committee can't vote on their own properties."

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #165 on: October 13, 2007, 11:28:53 AM »
Jim,

I can tell you that within ASGCA we debate how much any tour pro is really an architect when they apply.  In the eyes of most, JN now qualifies for reasons he pretty much gave while discussing in an interview whether Tiger is a gca right now (no, but he will get there, I think) JN has been around enough projects to learn the technical ins and outs of design.

I think he qualifies because I have had a few ex employees go to work for him, and the stories they tell about his involvment in strategy and routing sound legit to me.  I have heard contractors personell say he always kind of understood land and how it can be used, if not on paper then at least in field reviews.

Having become a gca the hard way (my green jackets come from Macy's or Dillards) I have sympathy for the traditional view of how to be a gca. At least until we started using computers, I could produce every drawing my office made, although we pulled an old green detail out with my initials on it the other day and commented that a final plan actually drawn by me was a rare find!  

Frankly, in any design biz, having the top cheese doing final drawings is a gross misappropriation of resources.  I doubt JN wants to do drawings past the sketch stage, nor do I think he should, but I think he does read topos well and critique routings (word is he reversed the routing for Shoal Creek, if I recall) and my ex employees say he truly does create the strategies on his signature courses.  His legendary memory for details is supposedly still strong, too!  They say if he says to lower the bunker six inches, he knows if it wasn't, etc.

So, in general, while I would have trouble jumping in and out of the process, (although you could argue that leaving the site for lunch allows things to happen out of your control!) I have concluded that he can and does and is able to keep his stamp on at least his signature courses through his business model.

I also agree that his business model focuses in part on numbers of courses, and I love the "boutique" shop model that I follow (and TD and CC follows) I don't think its any surprise, for instance that I garnered two best new wins from GD after my staff trimmed from 7 to 2 post 9/11.  I spend more time closely involved in my biggest projects (and frankly, they are all big to me)  If the focus is on keeping the monster running by taking all types of jobs, yes, the sites, owner quality and personal time for each project naturally diminshes.  I won't say it hurts JN's projects, because I don't know and because his associates probably have the same passion for projects we all do. But, based on my much smaller experience, I suspect it does or might.

Someone said the best comparison would be best course to best courses, not lists. I would add on similar sites.  If Dismal River ends up being considered inferior to SH by a great margin, using rankings, general buzz, rounds, or word of mouth as your guage, or if the top gca's all get nearby ocean front courses in Mexico, etc. and a pattern emerges, then I by all means you, me, or general consensus can annoint others as the top gca's of our era.

I don't think I ever implied otherwise.  My initial post on this thread was that many people value great maintenance, shot values, fairness, etc. that JN values and produces in his designs.  I think many of the same people also value the CC approach at SH, which might produce a different and entirely appropriate look there, while generally preferring the traditional look at home.

Perhaps my short version of this would be that there are certainly shades of gray in design, but anytime we make a statement on a discussion board, it tends by nature to move towards black and white, because its easier to assert.......there is just lots of room in this world for different types of courses, and as mentioned, we keep focusing on the top 100 rankings, or whatever.  Even if Jack has fewer designs in the top 100 than someone else,  it doesn't mean his designs are bad, but that seems to be the tone here, at least IMHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #166 on: October 13, 2007, 11:34:48 AM »
Anthony:

There are a lot of architects on the GOLF Magazine panel.  Last time I counted there were 15 of us, and Nicklaus was one of them, although maybe going back to being on the GOLF DIGEST staff precludes that now.  (But you neglected to mention that might have something to do with his successes on that list.)

In any case, in none of the rankings do architects get to vote on their own courses.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #167 on: October 13, 2007, 01:14:29 PM »


And Brian:  I think you should let your wife play one of my courses before you make such a blanket statement.  I guarantee you I've thought more about how she'll play the course than Jack does.
I absolutely agree that you probably have taken more time (personally) to accommodate her standard of golfer but she really does not give a hoot.  She just wants to enjoy the surroundings and the ambiance.

My wife looks at a golf course on the cover of a magazine and if it looks well manicured and beautiful and can take a nice swim afterwards she is more than happy traveling to that.  She finds the shaggy bunker look, ugly and as a paying customer is entitled to that. She does not care who it is designed by or how much time that person spent on site designing for her or anybody else.

Many on here, I feel, forget that golf is not just about the golf to a lot of travellers.  It is about the whole trip or weekend away.

All I hear from golfers in Scandinavia is how they played this course and that course that was beautiful and the greens were perfect.  In the mainstream no one really cares about what we are striving for.

Tom, you can call my statement whatever you want (and it annoys me that you call it a blanket statement) but I am only telling what she tells me and I hope I know her better than you..  ;)
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #168 on: October 13, 2007, 01:24:01 PM »
I have to agree with Brian on this one. As we all know, the wife is always right if we know what's good for us! ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #169 on: October 13, 2007, 01:47:02 PM »
You know, despite popular perception around here, his ratio might not be that much less than Tom Doak's time/project ratio.

Come on, Jeff, you are really stretching things.

And your comment re: TOC and Jack doesn't bear much under scrutiny.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 02:00:49 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #170 on: October 13, 2007, 01:48:12 PM »
Most of this thread is still much ado about nothing.

However, I am getting tired of hearing Jeff Brauer speculate about the differences between Jack Nicklaus' approach to business and my own, and use the fact that I'm not on site all the time to imply that I'm not there more than Jack.  That's just total bullshit, and it's all the worse because I think Jeff knows it it's b.s.  At Sebonack [which I'm using as an example because it's the only concrete example I have for Jack, NOT because I'm trying to take more than 50% credit for it], I was there every single one of the six times Jack was there during construction, but I was there for 4-5 days at a time, instead of 3/4 of a day.

Now, Jack truly believes that in those six days he created all the strategy [and I created the "look"], and my understanding is that that's about all the time he would have been there if I hadn't been around.  And I don't think he does the routings on any of his own designs, he just approves his associates' work.  So, from his perspective, I filled the same role at Sebonack that his associates normally do, and he should get all the credit.

Jack knows a lot about design, but I don't think he has any idea how much work it takes to build a truly great golf course.  He played golf all by himself and he thinks he can design that way, too.

As for the earlier discussion about understanding golf shots, all I'll say is that if Jack thinks I don't understand them, he'd say the same about the other 1,499 posters here, so you're wasting your breath.

And Brian:  I think you should let your wife play one of my courses before you make such a blanket statement.  I guarantee you I've thought more about how she'll play the course than Jack does.

Well said, Tom, every word.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #171 on: October 13, 2007, 01:50:46 PM »
Jim,
  Point missed...TD has the ability to vote for his own work...Maybe Gary didn't place enough ballots because I don't see his stuff on there....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

No, Tom doesn't. My understanding of Golf's rules is that architect's cannot vote on their own courses. I am willing to wager anything reasonable on this!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #172 on: October 13, 2007, 01:56:57 PM »
I have to agree with Brian on this one. As we all know, the wife is always right if we know what's good for us! ;)

I guess I am blessed to have a wife that is also always right, but in  the right way.

She loves ragged bunkers, wild greens and lots of fairway movement.  She doesn't like lush because it usually means not much roll.  Makes my life much easier.  ;)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #173 on: October 13, 2007, 01:59:13 PM »
Here's another question:

If Jack doesn't think anyone other than a top golfer can understand a proper golf shot, does he think anyone other than a top golfer can understand one of his courses?

Lots of horseshit.

Understanding what golf shots are possible is just not that difficult, I'm sorry. Understanding high level math, physics, chemistry, hell, even Shakespeare can be difficult - golf shots are not. Hitting them is beyond difficult, especially under tournament pressure.

I'm still waiting for someone to address Jack's paradox re: TOC - Jeff's dismissal doesn't count.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ryan Farrow

Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #174 on: October 13, 2007, 02:23:01 PM »


And Brian:  I think you should let your wife play one of my courses before you make such a blanket statement.  I guarantee you I've thought more about how she'll play the course than Jack does.
I absolutely agree that you probably have taken more time (personally) to accommodate her standard of golfer but she really does not give a hoot.  She just wants to enjoy the surroundings and the ambiance.

My wife looks at a golf course on the cover of a magazine and if it looks well manicured and beautiful and can take a nice swim afterwards she is more than happy traveling to that.  She finds the shaggy bunker look, ugly and as a paying customer is entitled to that. She does not care who it is designed by or how much time that person spent on site designing for her or anybody else.

Many on here, I feel, forget that golf is not just about the golf to a lot of travellers.  It is about the whole trip or weekend away.

All I hear from golfers in Scandinavia is how they played this course and that course that was beautiful and the greens were perfect.  In the mainstream no one really cares about what we are striving for.

Tom, you can call my statement whatever you want (and it annoys me that you call it a blanket statement) but I am only telling what she tells me and I hope I know her better than you..  ;)


Brian, your wife would not like this? Or think it is well manicured?