News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Nicklaus on Doak
« on: October 11, 2007, 10:00:38 AM »
Earlier this year I had the chance to sit down and talk with Jack Nicklaus (who was on Vancouver Island) for an interview. The topic of Sebonack came up, as did his take on seeing sites created by his peers. I found his comments interesting, especially when it came to Doak and strategy:

Do you think you bring something unique to golf design because of your experience as a player?

JN: Let’s put it this way, Tom Doak is not necessarily a golfer. Let’s just say I don’t think he understands what a golf shot should be. That’s not a criticism. He just doesn’t know. And that’s what I bring to a project. That’s why Sebonack turned out to be a nice golf course, because most of the strategy there is what I did. Most of the look I let him have because I like that look too. It is the combination of putting those two things together that make it work. Tom did a beautiful job of that and it turned out to be a very nice golf course. But I’ve now done that. Frankly I learned from that and I think you learn from that any time you do something like that. It is the same every time I play at St. Andrews. I always say, ‘Gee I’d like to do more things like St. Andrews.’ Every time I play Augusta I say I’d like to do more courses like that. Same with Pebble Beach. You are influenced by everything you see and do. There’s nothing new. It is just how you apply it.

His other interesting remark was about not going to see Sand Hills, which has been discussed here before, but here's a direct quote on the subject:

ScoreGolf: Are there any current golf designer’s you consider peers?

JN: I think Ben Crenshaw and Bill Coore, aesthetically do a very nice job. I think Tom Doak does a nice job aesthetically. But as that relates to design, I don’t worry about what anyone else does. I don’t think I’ve even gone to see someone else’s golf course in the last 20 years. What I’ve done is my own stuff, strictly on my own plan. My competition is the land.

I find both remarks extraordinary. First, I don't think there's any indication pros have the pulse of what makes a golf course strategic, but that said, I've not been to Sebonack. But if his logic rings true, then many of the best golf designers in history also don't "get" strategy.... of course there are also lots of pros that have created awful courses.

The second remark is more bothersome. I know there are lots of demands on Nicklaus' time, but I think one risks irrelevency if one doesn't pay attention to the best work being done in their profession. I know I try to read writers that I think are outstanding and I constantly learn from them. The perception must then be that Jack feels there is nothing he can learn from other designers -- which is interesting considering his work with Dye, Cupp and Morrish.

I know Doak has been careful not to be critical of Nicklaus as Sebonack was finished and opened -- but apparently the Golden Bear isn't holding fast to that rule.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2007, 10:06:35 AM »
I don't have the quotes handy, but I believe Tom has taken a similar position to Jack on their respective roles at Sebonack...each want most of the credit!

As to the other...am I off base in thinking you have to "risk irrelevancy" to really do something unique?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2007, 10:11:44 AM »
It's very simple.
Only the greatest player of all time "understands what a good  shot should be"

Which is why most people don't like Jack's courses
they just "don't know"

Tom Doak will never succeed designing for all those other 5,999,999,999 people on the planet
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 11:01:10 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2007, 10:12:24 AM »
You are off base about being unique.  No master of his craft should ignore what others do.  You do not need to steal from others work; but, often can be inspired to even greater creativity by studying other greats in your field.

Should musical artists never listen to music, authors never read, .....

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2007, 10:12:29 AM »
Robert, Too bad you didn't ask him if he's read any books on the subject of GCA. ;)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2007, 10:13:36 AM »
"Let’s put it this way, Tom Doak is not necessarily a golfer. Let’s just say I don’t think he understands what a golf shot should be. That’s not a criticism. He just doesn’t know. And that’s what I bring to a project. That’s why Sebonack turned out to be a nice golf course, because most of the strategy there is what I did. Most of the look I let him have because I like that look too."

Why do I have this hunch we've seen the last Doak/Nicklaus -- oops; sorry, Jack; Nicklaus/Doak -- collaboration?

I'm just curious: Which of the many insults jammed into this short passage will make Tom angriest?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2007, 10:13:36 AM »
I think the quotes are contradicting:

“Frankly I learned from that and I think you learn from that any time you do something like that. It is the same every time I play at St. Andrews. I always say, ‘Gee I’d like to do more things like St. Andrews.’ Every time I play Augusta I say I’d like to do more courses like that. Same with Pebble Beach. You are influenced by everything you see and do. There’s nothing new. It is just how you apply it.”

Then he says:

“I don’t think I’ve even gone to see someone else’s golf course in the last 20 years. What I’ve done is my own stuff, strictly on my own plan. My competition is the land.”

So he learns things from seeing great golf courses, but its not worth the time to see current great courses?
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2007, 10:16:19 AM »
Robert, Too bad you didn't ask him if he's read any books on the subject of GCA. ;)

Seems likely he's read "The Confidential Guide." Or at least heard about it. (Emoticons omitted.)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 10:17:45 AM by Dan Kelly™ »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2007, 10:19:37 AM »
Well, at least we have Nicklaus's indirect confirmation that he's never played a Tom Doak course.

I guess Jack won't be able to understand Tiger's courses, either.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2007, 10:19:59 AM »
I wonder how Michael Pascuzzi feels about him calling it a nice golf course?

Dan, I wonder if he read the whole book, or just the parts about him?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2007, 10:22:52 AM »
Dan, I wonder if he read the whole book, or just the parts about him?

There's the danger of opposing emoticons! (Adam -- That's what I was getting at.)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 10:28:30 AM by Dan Kelly™ »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2007, 10:27:48 AM »
Soooooo, if he hasn't seen C and C's or TD's courses, he is basing his comments about aesthetics based on what? Pictures?

Nicklaus seems like a classy, respectful guy.  These comments don't befit that.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2007, 10:31:02 AM »
Tom Doak says that Jack has a bedrock conviction that only a great golfer can understand golf course strategy, so Jack's condescending comments here won't come as any surprise to him.


Rich Goodale

Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2007, 10:32:25 AM »
Let's be honest--Tom has been damning Jack with faint praise for some time now.  This could be a serious bitch slap developing, but I hope not.  After all, it's only a golf course.

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2007, 10:32:50 AM »
I suspect Jack has played a Coore and Crenshaw course at some tour event -- or at least that's the only way I could make sense of his remarks that he likes Bill's work. I assume the only Doak course he's seen is the one he worked on....
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2007, 10:40:09 AM »
I suspect Jack has played a Coore and Crenshaw course at some tour event -- or at least that's the only way I could make sense of his remarks that he likes Bill's work. I assume the only Doak course he's seen is the one he worked on....

"I don't think I've gone to see someone elses' golf course in 20 years"  was what I was basing it off of.

I just remembered that TD said that Jack took his guys to see Friars Head.  I wonder if he thinks Crenshaw understands strategy...

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2007, 10:46:54 AM »
It's very simple.
Only the greatest player of all time "understands what a good a good shot should be"

Which is why most people don't like Jack's courses
they just "don't know"

Tom Doak will never succeed designing for all those other 5,999,999,999 people on the planet

That quote by JN is just plain ole self serving. Interesting that he cites ANGC, a course done by a "hack". ;) (Originally anyway)


Tom HAS BEEN successful and WILL CONTINUE to be, and last time I checked, he's best are ranked higher than Jack's.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2007, 10:51:21 AM »
Doak is adamant that his models are older courses, rather than newer adaptations, starting with Scotland and TOC.  JN says he draws inspiration from older courses, like TOC, PB, etc. rather than modern adaptations.

Why slam JN for having the same opinion as Tom God Doak? ;)

As to whether he thinks Crenshaw understands strategy, why yes.  As to whether he thinks any modern golfer uses the running game CC allows for, probably not so much.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2007, 10:53:09 AM »
Has there been a more strategic golfer than Jack Nicklaus?

I think Tom and Jack have very different definitions of success. It would be easy to argue that both have been very successful in the golf architecture field.

I think Jack has always been brutally honest and it has cost him in some circles.


« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 10:53:56 AM by Craig Edgmand »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2007, 10:59:19 AM »
Just because you're honest doesn't mean you're right. Lots of people make that mistake - actually, damn near everyone I've ever seen or met.

Jeff -

I'd be a bit surprised Tom would say he is "adamant that his models are older courses, rather than newer adaptations." One of his 31 Flavors was a course that wasn't even completely finished.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2007, 11:00:26 AM »
Just read his comments again and was struck by "My competition is the land."

Reminded me of something wonderful I saw just yesterday for the first time (and the second): a kid lip-synching to Will Farrell's "George W. Bush" on Global Warming; specifically, the comments about Nature and Man near the end of it.

The link:
 http://www.stupidvideos.us/video.aspx/IDp~1572/George%20W.%20Bush%20imitation/Funny%20videos/
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2007, 11:03:13 AM »
JN: Let’s put it this way, Tom Doak is not necessarily a golfer. Let’s just say I don’t think he understands what a golf shot should be. That’s not a criticism. He just doesn’t know. And that’s what I bring to a project.

There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance.  Designers, like TD, may not be able to hit shots like Jack,but that doesn't mean they don't know what that shot should be.  Remarks like these are self serving and not worthy of a man of his stature.

Members of my congregation may not be able to preach a great sermon, but they know one when they hear it.  And they know a dud when they hear it as well.  Fortunately for me they are also gracious.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2007, 11:10:53 AM »
George,

              Never said that being honest meant your right. Nor, does repeating the same lie over and over again make it true.  

              Its just the Nicklaus, Fazio, Rees bashing gets old... its like oh its Thursday lets bash Nicklaus... oh its Friday lets bash Fazio.   Let's not all be butt-boys just because someones work reflects one groups narrow definition of success.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 11:12:17 AM by Craig Edgmand »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2007, 11:11:08 AM »
This thread seems like bait, which I hope Tom Doak doesn't take.

Brent Hutto

Re:Nicklaus on Doak
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2007, 11:14:35 AM »
So who knows more about driving a car, Richard Petty or John Kavenaugh? No contest, really. John isn't much of a driver at all is he?

So if you want to build an asphalt road, I'm sure John could build you a pretty road but if you want a great road then it should be built by a great driver. Nobody else can understand all the things that a great road needs to be.