O/T And you thought Dottie Pepper was tough

[Rich Goodale]

Bob

I'll take your word for it.  At the time I was probably still hungover from celebrating the Yankees 4-0 sweep of the Phillies in the World Series.  Being 4 at the time I always wondered why South Africa and Scotland didn't play in that Series.  Now I know.  Thanks!

RFG

[Tony_Muldoon]

As an embittered Irishman let me join the debate.  IMO this has been the most boring World Cup yet, with predominantly defensive tactics, limited ambitions (Argentina and England) and several teams underperforming (The teams currently ranked at 1, 3 & 5 in the world).  If NZ had delivered on their promise it would have been a great thing for Rugby.  

 I’m with Rich on this there’s just not enough space.   Should Rugby go down the Golf route and make all the pitches 20% bigger?  (Incidentally I met the Chairman of Gilberts at Twickers earlier in the year and he confirmed that modern balls do get kicked a lot further).

As an ex second row forward I reflect on what a great improvement to the game when they cleaned up the lineout laws.  More than ever it’s now a test of skill and a base for great attacking mauls.  

The changes to the ruck laws have also been a great improvement, apart from the fact it’s has exacerbated the problems with having too many forwards in this day and age.  

Wing forwards have to go.  The scrum will be all the better for it as they add width and make it easier to use the wheel as a defensive tactic. I know it’s not new but it has always made it harder for the better scrummaging side to exploit their advantage.  

Something will have to be done in this professional age as I don’t think ‘the product’ is right. I am worried that in future the game will change from having internationals as the highest form of the game to a greater emphasis, like football, on the club game.  

[Ed Tilley]

 

The joys of being an English sports fan. What a week! Football, rugby, F1 - we can lose at everything.

[Philip Gawith]

It is no consolation Ed but at the start of F1 season you would have been over the moon at where Lewis H finished (did you see Bernie Ecclestone interviewed on this topic yesterday? I agreed with him. Basically,  Lewis has time on his side). And at the start of the rugby season, or start of World Cup, or even more after the first two games, you would have been delighted with the outcome.

In the end it was a tough and tight game - close enough for England fans to wonder what might have been, not least because you did not get the rub of the green. That said, I don't think any cosmic injustice took place.

The attached article is quite interesting perspective from a leading third party commentator.

http://www.rugbyheaven.com.au/news/news/sa-an-unstoppable-force/2007/10/21/1192940904231.html

[Rich Goodale]

The year wasn't a complete loss for England.  After all, you won the Buda Cup.

[Ed Tilley]

It is no consolation Ed but at the start of F1 season you would have been over the moon at where Lewis H finished (did you see Bernie Ecclestone interviewed on this topic yesterday? I agreed with him. Basically,  Lewis has time on his side). And at the start of the rugby season, or start of World Cup, or even more after the first two games, you would have been delighted with the outcome.

In the end it was a tough and tight game - close enough for England fans to wonder what might have been, not least because you did not get the rub of the green. That said, I don't think any cosmic injustice took place.

The attached article is quite interesting perspective from a leading third party commentator.

http://www.rugbyheaven.com.au/news/news/sa-an-unstoppable-force/2007/10/21/1192940904231.html

Who's to say what the future holds for Lewis Hamilton - this may have been his shot.

The article is interesting and fair. S. Africa thoroughly deserved their triumph over the course of the tournament. The final itself was very close - there is no doubt that SA had the benefit of a number of dubious decisions that could have changed the game. The try is the obvious one and that could have gone either way. Of more importance to me was the ignoring of Brian Habana's blatant obstruction in front of the posts about 30 metres out at 9-6. How the referee didn't give that only he will know. The Boks went up the pitch and, while I was still hurling abuse at Mr Rolland, England gave away a silly penalty. 9-9 becomes 12-6.

As you say though, there was no cosmic injustice and I believe the Boks would have won anyway - although it would have been a much better finish.

[Philip Gawith]

It's a funny thing what TV replays do for you. I was at the game and have not seen any replays. All I hear is the England fan's second guessing every penalty decision awarded - or not! But then England fans - your good self excepted, of course - are still criticising the refereeing of the 2003 final, victory notwithstanding!

In the old days the try would certainly have been awarded. It is a bit like cricket and decisions involving the boundary rope. "Morally" Cueto scored, just as in "morally" fielders who do a fantastic job stopping the ball, but touch the rope, should get the benefit of the doubt.

As for Lewis - I have a smidgen of sympathy, but not more. He got exactly what he deserved, no more, no less. He made mistakes on and off the track, and had reliability issues - they just all got back-end loaded, which made it a bit more difficult to handle.

[Ed Tilley]

Rugby is an unbelievably technical game and unforunately the referee can have a big influence on the game. Believe me, Alain Rolland was a lot more even handed than our good friend Andre Watson . Rolland had a good game, but a couple of crucial 50-50 decisions went S.Africa's way. To win the game, England needed it to be the other way round. As I say, and from what I've read just about every English player and reporter also say, S.Africa deserved to win and are worthy champions.

Re the try: when the decision was referred the commentators said 'the TMO is Stuart Dickinson from Australia'. At that moment, I just knew, with 100% certainty, that the try wouldn't be awarded. Something about Australian video refs - thoughts of Michael Slater run outs flashed before my eyes. Paranoid - me?

[Tony_Muldoon]

 

I was at the game

It's good to be Philip Gawith.

Shame no tries but I have to love a game where a second row has such an influence.  Congratulations Victor Matfield for dominating the lineout no matter which side was throwing in. And guess who hauled down Tait? Outstanding.

Enjoy Philip and well done SA.

[Philip Gawith]

I am a big Victor Matfield fan and have been for a few years. He really is an exceptional athlete - I remember him scoring a fantastic open field try against Australia few years ago.

I think the  Barbarians/South Africa match at Twickenham game on Dec 1 will be one worth watching - sometimes they are a bit gimmicky, but I have a good feeling about this one.

[Tony_Muldoon]

And of course The Lions are coming.

[Jon Earl]

Philip

May I add my congratulations too. The patently better side won and was the appropriate end to a fantastic tournament. There was no way the 'try' could have been given once it had been sent 'upstairs'. That will not stop the red tops adding it to the list of sporting injustices against the English (the Hand of God, the Foot of Cueto) . I also think that even had the try been scored SA still would have won as they were playing error free rugby and well within themselves.

What effect will the quota system (for want of a better expression) to make the national side more representative have on the short and long term chances for the Boks. Will it be put on hold following winning the World Cup?

[Philip Gawith]

It is nice being congratulated by association!

Jon - that is a VERY big and difficult question. The reality is that Thabo Mbeki and those close to him are more interested in how the team looks than how it performs. They will do everything they can to change the racial composition of the team. The success of the current team may somewhat temper their efforts but i doubt it.

It is very difficult to speculate what this all means in practice. We will have to see who they appoint as coach and then what team runs out for the first test in 2008. Worst case scenario, they are heavy-handed, team starts to lose a lot, best players leave the country, sponsors leave the game, fans leave the game - senses are reached after a period of harm. Best case - adminstrators continue to push heavily at lower levels of the game (this has been happening a lot, though, for nearly ten years) but recognise that the national team must be the best 15 players (as judged by qualified people, not political hacks - not a point to be taken for granted).

Though it pains me to say it, I am not optimistic. I do not expect pleasant surprises from these politicians. So I am apprehensive.

[Philip Gawith]

This link gives you a feel for the government perspective.

http://www.keo.co.za/2007/10/23/stofile-we-wont-interfere/

[Bob_Huntley]

Jon - that is a VERY big and difficult question. The reality is that Thabo Mbeki and those close to him are more interested in how the team looks than how it performs. They will do everything they can to change the racial composition of the team. The success of the current team may somewhat temper their efforts but i doubt it.

Philip,

As with all things in Africa it will come down to race. I am afraid that Mbeki, with his lack of will, or smarts, never had the vision of the country has had Mandela. Whether it be the admission that sex causes HIV/Aids or that his Health Minister advocates the chewing of garlic to cure the disease, that
Mugabe in Zimbabwe is a Freedom Fighter not just a thug and the corruption of the political elite of the ANC is endemic, the make-up of the Springbok team is going to be about  "Diversity."


Bob