[JC Jones]

I apologize in advance for the number of Crystal Downs related posts I make in the coming weeks.

Anywho

The member I played with at CD suggested that although Cypress Point had some spectacular holes, he also felt it had 6 or 7 "average" holes that get a free pass because of the fact that its Cypress Point.  

I have not played CP, nor do I know much about it, but I am curious to know what holes he could have been talking about.

He was using this as his reasoning for why he felt CD was better than CP.  I know there has been discussion about the back 9 at CD not being up to par with the front 9 and thus causing it to drop a little in its evaluation.  I would vehemently disagree with this premise and argue that the back 9 is every bit the challenge and fun that the front 9 is, however, Im open to hearing anyones thoughts.

Long story short, could CD be reasonably considered to be better than CP?  And, what holes are lacking at CP?

[Tom_Doak]

No holes are "lacking" at Cypress Point.

The principal differences between the two courses are as follows:

1.  Crystal Downs is perceived by good players as more challenging, because even though they are both short courses, par at Crystal Downs is 70 instead of 72 and there are no "easy" par fives.

2.  Crystal Downs has the more severe set of greens, which some people love, and others dismiss as gimmicky.

3.  Cypress Point has the ocean.

They are both terrific golf courses.

[JC Jones]

No holes are "lacking" at Cypress Point.

The principal differences between the two courses are as follows:

1.  Crystal Downs is perceived by good players as more challenging, because even though they are both short courses, par at Crystal Downs is 70 instead of 72 and there are no "easy" par fives.

2.  Crystal Downs has the more severe set of greens, which some people love, and others dismiss as gimmicky.

3.  Cypress Point has the ocean.

They are both terrific golf courses.

Tom D -

Thanks for the clarification.  

If there can be so much debate as to which course is better, what can explain the disparity in their rankings?

[Tom_Doak]

JC:

What disparity?  They are both tens on the Doak scale.  And they're both in the top ten on the Golf Digest list now.  That's not very far apart.

[JC Jones]

JC:

What disparity?  They are both tens on the Doak scale.  And they're both in the top ten on the Golf Digest list now.  That's not very far apart.

Tom -

I had not taken into account the Doak scale, my apologies!!

According to Golf magazine, the panel on which you sit, CP is #2 with an average score of 93.86.  CD is #22 with an average score of 64.79.

Relatively speaking, that is the difference between an A+ and a D.

I would call that disparity.

[Ally Mcintosh]

JC:

What disparity?  They are both tens on the Doak scale.  And they're both in the top ten on the Golf Digest list now.  That's not very far apart.

Tom -

I had not taken into account the Doak scale, my apologies!!

According to Golf magazine, the panel on which you sit, CP is #2 with an average score of 93.86.  CD is #22 with an average score of 64.79.

Relatively speaking, that is the difference between an A+ and a D.

I would call that disparity.

number 22 out of 24,000 courses only warrants a D?...

glad you're not marking my work...

[JC Jones]

JC:

What disparity?  They are both tens on the Doak scale.  And they're both in the top ten on the Golf Digest list now.  That's not very far apart.

Tom -

I had not taken into account the Doak scale, my apologies!!

According to Golf magazine, the panel on which you sit, CP is #2 with an average score of 93.86.  CD is #22 with an average score of 64.79.

Relatively speaking, that is the difference between an A+ and a D.

I would call that disparity.

number 22 out of 24,000 courses only warrants a D?...

glad you're not marking my work...

I said "relatively speaking," as in relative to the top 100 courses.

[Jordan Wall]

An assistant pro at work seems to think that CP has several very 'average' holes as well.  He says they just aren't the type of holes a truly great course would ever possess.
To put this into perspective though, he thinks #9 is a dumb hole.

However, from everyone else I know who has played CP, they all say it is spectacular.  Perfect.  Everything a course can be.

Plus, the members I know all say how great of a course it is to play many times (ie- a great members course).  They never tire of playing the course, which to me would be the ultimate sign of a great course.  I dont believe there is a great course in the world I would not enjoy playing day in and day out.


Dont really know as many people who have played CD, but the few I do know absolutely love the place.


I think the real question is, are the courses really worth comparing?
I would think they each have their own merits which make them great, and comparing them would just diminish the quality of one of the courses, or perhaps, both.  To me it seems pointless to compare the courses.  Think about it..CP has ocean, huge dunes, where CD has no ocean, no huge sand dunes....so they are totally different golf courses.

[JC Jones]

An assistant pro at work seems to think that CP has several very 'average' holes as well.  He says they just aren't the type of holes a truly great course would ever possess.
To put this into perspective though, he thinks #9 is a dumb hole.

However, from everyone else I know who has played CP, they all say it is spectacular.  Perfect.  Everything a course can be.

Plus, the members I know all say how great of a course it is to play many times (ie- a great members course).  They never tire of playing the course, which to me would be the ultimate sign of a great course.  I dont believe there is a great course in the world I would not enjoy playing day in and day out.


Dont really know as many people who have played CD, but the few I do know absolutely love the place.


I think the real question is, are the courses really worth comparing?
I would think they each have their own merits which make them great, and comparing them would just diminish the quality of one of the courses, or perhaps, both.  To me it seems pointless to compare the courses.  Think about it..CP has ocean, huge dunes, where CD has no ocean, no huge sand dunes....so they are totally different golf courses.

Crystal Downs IS a sand dune.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think the real question is, are the courses really worth comparing?
I would think they each have their own merits which make them great, and comparing them would just diminish the quality of one of the courses, or perhaps, both.  To me it seems pointless to compare the courses.  Think about it..CP has ocean, huge dunes, where CD has no ocean, no huge sand dunes....so they are totally different golf courses.

Jordan,

The only danger lies in the fear of comparing Mackenzie courses.  What is the worst thing that can happen?

[C. Squier]

I think the real question is, are the courses really worth comparing?
I would think they each have their own merits which make them great, and comparing them would just diminish the quality of one of the courses, or perhaps, both.  To me it seems pointless to compare the courses.  Think about it..CP has ocean, huge dunes, where CD has no ocean, no huge sand dunes....so they are totally different golf courses.

They both have 18 flagsticks stuck in 4.25 inch holes.  Let the comparing begin!  The misconception of good debate is that there has to be a winner and a loser.  Good debate challenges the mind and in the process educates both parties.  Throwing your hands up and saying  "they're both great, no need to continue" doesn't give either place justice.  Both have advantages and disadvantages over each other and its fun to discuss that.

CPS

[Tom Huckaby]

What's funny to me is that out of the VERY small universe of people who have played these two great private clubs, probably at least a quarter frequent this forum... which to me illustrates both the strength and the weakness of this forum.. but I digress.

I haven't played CD so I have no opinion.  But I would say anyone who says CP has 6-7 "average" golf holes has impossibly high standards.  I don't see ONE "average" golf hole on that course.

TH

[JC Jones]

What's funny to me is that out of the VERY small universe of people who have played these two great private clubs, probably at least a quarter frequent this forum... which to me illustrates both the strength and the weakness of this forum.. but I digress.

I haven't played CD so I have no opinion.  But I would say anyone who says CP has 6-7 "average" golf holes has impossibly high standards.  I don't see ONE "average" golf hole on that course.

TH

Are there 6-7 holes that you think or you have heard people say, that do not live up to the other 12-14?  As in, they are great holes, but in comparison...

I've read a lot of people on this site who feel that way about 12-16 at Crystal Downs.  While I dont agree with them, at least there as has been dissention.  I dont seem to find similar dissention re Cypress Point.

[Tom Huckaby]

JC:

Sure some holes are better than others at Cypress Point, but that's the case at every golf course on this planet, no?  

To put it another way, what holes WOULDN'T live up to 15-16-17?

Just seems odd to me to downgrade a course for having such spectacular golf holes that some others on the course don't measure up.

The way I see it, CPC doesn't have one single hole that isn't significantly better than the best hole at my home muni (which is a pretty good course, btw).  So I can't get a grip on calling any hole there "average", nor I can get a grip on this revised way of looking at it (ie not measuring up to the other great ones).

But to each his own....

And as I say, I'm an interloper here, having never been within 500 miles of CD (if I ever got that close!).

So never mind.....

 

[JC Jones]

JC:

Sure some holes are better than others at Cypress Point, but that's the case at every golf course on this planet, no?  

To put it another way, what holes WOULDN'T live up to 15-16-17?

Just seems odd to me to downgrade a course for having such spectacular golf holes that some others on the course don't measure up.

The way I see it, CPC doesn't have one single hole that isn't significantly better than the best hole at my home muni (which is a pretty good course, btw).  So I can't get a grip on calling any hole there "average", nor I can get a grip on this revised way of looking at it (ie not measuring up to the other great ones).

But to each his own....

And as I say, I'm an interloper here, having never been within 500 miles of CD (if I ever got that close!).

So never mind.....

 

I will not Never Mind, thank you.  I've never been within x00 miles of CPC so we are even.

What this member said about CPC I've seen many on this site say about Pebble.  That there are holes on the course that are good, but not great, and the handful of great holes elevate the status of the entire course.

I'd say that CD has 18 great holes.

[Tom Huckaby]

Fair enough.  I will say that CP has 18 great holes.

I also don't doubt that CD has 18 great holes, from what I've seen and heard.

TH

[BVince]

I like a good debate, but to claim that 1/3 of the holes are average at the #1 or #2 rated course in the world seems to be a AWFULLY critical.

[Tom Huckaby]

I like a good debate, but to claim that 1/3 of the holes are average at the #1 or #2 rated course in the world seems to be a AWFULLY critical.

Byron - that was rather my point as well.

 

[Craig Van Egmond]

I have been lucky (blessed really) to have played both courses (once) and I rate them both in my personal top 5. Both are awesome courses and are worthy of Doak 10's.  Out of some 16,000 plus golf courses in the United States they are "Slam Dunks".

I absolutely love both courses and could never tire of either, however if I had to pick one over the other, I'd pick Cypress Point. The margin is so insignificant that it is hardly worth the worry.

If you get to play either one, be grateful and enjoy.

[JC Jones]

I like a good debate, but to claim that 1/3 of the holes are average at the #1 or #2 rated course in the world seems to be a AWFULLY critical.

I dont recall saying average, if I did, I apologize.  I am meaning to say that they are good, but not great, and the great ones are so spectacular they raise the ranking of the course.

We debate Shinnecock v Pine Valley all the time here.  Not sure why CD v CPC is so offensive....

[Tom Huckaby]

JC:  and I surely never said the debate of CD v. CP is offensive.  In fact, I enjoy these things.  I've just never played CD so cannot participate.  My thoughts are limited to CP, which I have been very lucky to play several times.

And about that course, you did say:

The member I played with at CD suggested that although Cypress Point had some spectacular holes, he also felt it had 6 or 7 "average" holes that get a free pass because of the fact that its Cypress Point.

To which I reacted.  But your apology is accepted - not that it was needed!

 

[Craig Van Egmond]

I guess I missed those weak holes at Cypress Point... guess I'll just have to play it a few more times and see.  

[BVince]

No need to apologize...thats why I come to this site.  I like hearing others opinions on GCA.  Keep it coming.

I really like ratings...I love reading all of the different publications take on golf course architecture.  Although most of the panelist are well known in the industry, I just keep in mind that they are personal opinions.  I just hope to experience some of these wonderful places because a well designed course never fails in making me smile.

[Joel_Stewart]

I've played them both and to find fault is nit-picking.  Some holes are better than others.  At CD, IMHO the front nine is world class, over the top.  I was a little let down on the back but it has a collection of holes that are very good.  The 17th which has been discussed on this site is a very short par 4 which you either love or hate.  I would compare it to the 14th at Bandon Trails.

Cypress has some holes that are not world class in themselves but mend great with the course.  For discussion I would say #3, #4 and #10 are just OK.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Joel:

Re #3, 4, 10 at CPC - is that just OK compared to the rest of the course, or just OK compared to the rest of the golf world?

If it's the former, than fine, you did pick the three least spectacular holes on the course... but if it's the latter, well... I need to take you to Santa Teresa.

 

TH

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