[Tim MacEachern]

Our club had been considering building a new course with a dreaded island green.  (The considerations may still be going on.)  Seeing the design, the back tee is some 190 yards from the green, which is not that large an island.



There is an option to play a lay-up , then have a much easier short shot to the green.

My questions are (and perhaps a handicap index will help understanding your reasoning):

At what distance does an island green become too penal?

At what distance would you consider laying up instead of challenging the shot?

Would you feel cheated if your best play were to lay up?

[Edit: Sorry, couldn't get a direct image to work.  Try
http://www.flickr.com/photos/64046857@N00/44852915  ].

[wsmorrison]

Here is the routing:

[Tim MacEachern]

Thanks, Wayne -- what did I do wrong?  I tried the img tag with no success.  Perhaps the filename needs a suffix.

[wsmorrison]

Tim,

In addition to the url, you need to have (img) immediately before the jpg filename and (/img) immediately afterwards.  However, instead of parentheses (), make sure you use brackets[ ] around img and /img.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Who is the golf course architect?

[Eric Franzen]

RTJ Jr did a true doe or die island green at the newly opened Stadium Course at Bro Hof Slott GC outside of Stockholm. The green is quite small and very difficult to hit for mortal golfers when the wind picks up from lake Malaren.
The rounds that I have played there usually means a bit of waiting on this particular tee since two or more players from the group ahead of you have to use the drop zone, situated around 80 yards in front of the hole.

The hole at Bro Hof is very penal, even from the members tee at 135 yards. However, it was created with future tour events in mind as part of a dramatic finish (island par 3 - short drivable par 4).

[Eric Franzen]

I can also imagine that small island greens, like the one pictured in my previous example, must be a bit tricky to maintain in a long term perspective. For example, there is only one exit point which will concentrate the wear and tear from golfers that enters and exits the green to a limited area.  

Anyway, there should be a bunch of supers on this board that could tell us a bit about what it is like to maintain an island green.

[Tim MacEachern]

Who is the golf course architect?

Les Furber.  You'll note that he put in an alternate green for the hole as well.  But that means a lay-up before playing to the island green is more difficult.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I can also imagine that small island greens, like the one pictured in my previous example, must be a bit tricky to maintain in a long term perspective. For example, there is only one exit point which will concentrate the wear and tear from golfers that enters and exits the green to a limited area.  

Anyway, there should be a bunch of supers on this board that could tell us a bit about what it is like to maintain an island green.

Good points Eric. I think the main consideration should be given re length to where the average golfer is going to play from and I would think 150 yards would be the maximum, ideally 135 or less. Back tees for the pro's are fine. Greens should be of a size not less than 5000 sq ft, so 28 yards is probably the smallest depth. There are ofcourse NO RULES.

[Tyler Kearns]

It seems like every Furber course I see features two parallel holes separated by a lake and culminating in a double-green.

TK

[Forrest Richardson]

Les is a good man. Having worked for the "Jones Organization" for many years, I'll bet he has some great stories on island greens. Mr. Jones (Sr.) was a master at island greens, likely having produced more than any other golf designer.

I would ask the question directly to Les in your situation. Unless the golf course architect him/herself opens a design question here, I really feel it inappropriate to second guess the design/planning process.

Now...once the design is done and built, I think we can fairly open the matter to critique and "what-ifs".

[paul cowley]

Tim....I am not sure I understand about the lay up opportunity.

What I am looking at seems to be a par three that can play to two different greens, from multiple tees....it appears to be an interesting hole, especially when wind or a tournament set up can require a different option .

aside; Forrest I am glad you are up and could join us here...my shoulders are only so broad my friend

[Ryan Farrow]

Les is a good man. Having worked for the "Jones Organization" for many years, I'll bet he has some great stories on island greens. Mr. Jones (Sr.) was a master at island greens, likely having produced more than any other golf designer.

I would ask the question directly to Les in your situation. Unless the golf course architect him/herself opens a design question here, I really feel it inappropriate to second guess the design/planning process.

Now...once the design is done and built, I think we can fairly open the matter to critique and "what-ifs".

Doesn't every member of a club have the right to object to gimmicks like island greens, it is their money that will be paying for this, right?

[Forrest Richardson]

Ryan — Your comment strikes me as arrogant on more than one level.

You do not have to agree about whether an architect of record deserves chatter about his/her design. I believe, professionally, the questions at this stage should be posed to whomever is handling the work for the club.

As for the general comment that an island green is a gimmick, I believe you need to study history much more than you apparently have to this date in your still young life. (But, I do admire you for putting words out there, many young people say absolutely nothing and, as a result, they do not learn much at all.)

[Tim MacEachern]

I'd like to clarify:  I'm not objecting to this.  I'll probably be playing from no more than 150 yards, which should be fine for me (5.7 HF currently).  I was just wondering how quickly the playability of these holes decline.  For me, I don't see tees of more than 170 yards to be reasonable.  I guess Cypress Point, while not an island, would be a counterexample.

And, on an earlier point, Les does seem to manage a double green on each design.  I can think of worse signatures .

[Jason Connor]

The 6th hole at The Judge at Capital Hill (RTJ Golf Trail) has a 229 yard island green from the tips.  Playing for the oranges tees, 190-200yds, (sort of the blues, 6700 yds) I've hit 2-iron and 4-iron to it before.

It's a huge island and even has the tee to the 7th hole on the back part of the island.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

To me, the 11th at The Creek is the ideal island green due to the enormous variety presented by the size and shape of the green along with the varying tee lengths, the water and the WIND.

The green is a modified Biarritz in that the swale is not as pronounced as Yale's and others, nonetheless, I've never seen greater variety in a par 3 hole.

The green is about 90 yards in depth, probably 40 or so yards wide.

Go to Google earth and look at it.

It's on the North Shore of Long Island, right on the LI Sound, in Locust Valley.

[Kalen Braley]

The floating green at the CDA resort in northern Idaho can be moved closer to shore or further out.  The last time I played it, it was 160 yards in a 15 MPH breeze, from the white tees.  From the back tees it was 190 yards into the same wind.

On a side note, I've heard the comment made several times here that should any given hole have a gurantee that the green can be hit in regulation?  Does this apply to a long island par 3 that provides a feasible layup area.  Is it unreasonable to layup on a par 3 especially given that its the much more prudent play?

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