Jim Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2007, 02:09:25 am »
Seminole when it is UP has to make the list as well...albeit a notch or two below PV...

I have to imagine I could go to Oakmont and play every hole for a bogey and succeed with no sweat at all...that is not the case at PV...even a little bit.

Haven't played Bandon either Gib, you are too well traveled...

Jim Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2007, 02:12:30 am »
What would someone do with blow at Dead show?


As to tee selection...it doesn't much matter to me which tees we play...is there a substantial difference in the difference between mens and womens sets at PV and Oakmont?



Gib Papazian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2007, 02:13:24 am »
Jes,

I am also 16 years older than you . . . . . Have kids late and play all the golf you can while you're young.

As for PV, I am a short hitter by any measuring stick and hit:

5-iron, 3-wood, 8-iron and 4-iron in order.

Maybe there are some new back tees, no idea, but those were the clubs I hit last time. Tom Paul was standing right there . . . . .

I must have caught it on a windless day with the tees waaaay up, because I am a short-knocking queer when compared to guys like Shivas.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 02:16:41 am by Gib Papazian »
“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”
― Douglas Adams

Jim Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2007, 02:20:22 am »
... I am a short-knocking queer when compared to guys like Shivas.


Aren't we all...

My fourth just turned 1 and the oldest (twins) are not yet 5...you do the math, she's Irish!

My point about tees and distances is that I would guess it's equitable. Standard men's tees at PV are a certain amount shorter and easier than the tips. I would guess that ratio hold true at Oakmont and everywhere else...but that's just a guess.


Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2007, 02:28:37 am »
I have thought one of the hardest set of par 3s all under 200 yards is at Brancaster (Royal West Norfolk) even when there is a slight breeze. If you miss the green at all of them its hard to get up and down.

The 4th is only 122 yards to a 21 yard deep green with 30ft drops front and left. The 6th is 182 yards to a raised green with the marshes on the left. The 10th is 147 yards to a tiny green that cannot be missed. The 15th is 186 yards I remember playing it in a practice day hitting a 9 iron and then in the 1st round of a comp hitting a 2 iron.

Club selection has always been a headache on the par 3s on this special course.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 02:29:57 am by Ben Stephens »

PPallotta

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2007, 02:31:25 am »
A question for you gents - does the 'cumulative' effect have anything to do with making this judgement?

What I mean is, take for example Oakmont and PV: by the end of a round you've played 14 other holes besides the Par 3s. Do the holes that come before (either right before or earlier in the round) the Par 3s end up making those Par 3s 'harder', even if just psychologically?

or put another way: does the shot-making variety demanded at PV wear you down for the Par 3s? Does the unremitting toughness of Oakmont do the same? More? Less?

Thanks
P



Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2007, 02:39:27 am »
Peter,

Good observation/question.

I also wonder if this question is different for different skill levels. For instance, the 17th at Sawgrass may be an easy 3 or 4 for me, but it might be almost impossible for my dad. The 9th at Kingsley, while having eaten my lunch on several occasions, is usually a 3 or 4 on my card. But, for golfers who can hit it anywhere and have trouble with short recovery shots may pick it up after they run out of fingers to count on.

So, I think the question would be better clarified, for me, thusly:

For better golfers, which course's par 3's are least likely to yield birdies and most likely to yield bogeys or higher?

Joe

Jim Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2007, 02:49:58 am »
Peter,

I'd think a steady flow of tough, interesting shots will keep your antenna up and in tune...

Joe,

asked that way, Gib might have a winner in Oakmont (I've not been there) because bogeys would seem to count the same as doubles and triples...

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2007, 02:54:45 am »
JES,

For me, these type questions need some sort of qualifiers, because otherwise it just becomes another list. It can be useful to identify certain courses based on playability traits, but only with context. Perhaps my qualifiers and context aren't the best for a broadened discussion, but I had to start somewhere.

Joe

Jim Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2007, 02:58:51 am »
Joe,

I wasn't saying that was the wrong way to do it, just that it might change my answer...

By the way, I set a qualifier earlier in that "hardest" meant most total strokes over a severl round test...

Either way is fine, and I'm not pissing just typing...who could have  apissing match with a guy that says..."then I will be the first to admit the par-3's at PV got more pussy than I got Johnson."?

peter_mcknight

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2007, 03:08:46 am »
The 17th at Oakland Hills moved from 201 yards to 238 yards post Rees re-do.  Yes, the top guys certainly howled at that one.  There is a new tee for the 9th at 257 yards as well. They didn't seem to cry too much about the rest of the increased yardages, however.

OHCC will be 7445 yards par 70 next year.  The monster now has some teeth back in it.

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2007, 03:14:18 am »
Of all the course I've played, I give the nod to Pine Valley because they are always hard, no matter what the conditions. I've not played Shinnecock, but when the wind is down Seminole is not nearly (IMO) as difficult.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2007, 03:55:46 am »
I looked at the Unisys Scoring package online for the 2004 US Open at Shinnecock and the 2007 US Open at Oakmont.  Interestingly the par 3's played about the same with Shinnecocks greens slightly harder to hit in regulation than oakmonts (oakmonts 8th was the hardest to hit of any hole at either course but at 288yds it was silly). Here are the stats.

Oakmont                       Shinnecock
        score   %hit                  score     %hit
#6     3.31     42%         #2     3.26       43%
#8     3.45     27%         #7     3.41       33%
#13   3.11     66%         #11    3.33       50%
#16   3.32     50%         #17    3.21       45%

avg   3.298    46.3%               3.303      42.7%

The seventh at Shinny was absurd by the last day. So, i don't know how to factor that.  One thing though is that the wind did not blow there in 2004.  

Interesting comparison though.  #13 at OCC is clearly the easiest hole of the bunch and #8 at OCC the toughest.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2007, 06:47:06 am »
That Jans sounds like a tough beeotch. I find it interesting that in prof majors the par 3s typically play hardest relative to par whereas in handicap golf we don't get too many strokes when we play against a competitor like Old Man Par.

Of the courses I've seen, the five par 3s at Grove Park Inn provide the greatest number of strokes between two golfers one level of ability apart.

For example, a five handi playing against scratch will receive a stroke on two par 3s(!) and a nine playing a zero will get strokes on three par 3s.

Here are the holes and their stroke numbers:
2nd  9
7th  5
9th  3
14th 18
17th 10

The 17th illustrates the nature of the 3s. 190 yards, to reach the back tees you climb past a decorative fountain up a goodly amount of steps,your confusion growing as you mount the hill...because you are walking through somebody's garden and up to their house!

And then...you walk around their house to the tee hard against one side. You know Hogan's comment about the 10th(?) at WF West, "a 3 iron into somebody's bedroom?"

Well, this is a 3 iron from somebody's bedroom.

The shot is past the house on the right and a well-leafed tree on the left. The green is benched into a hill side, not particularly hard to putt, but you cannot  miss right.

Guess the raters figured it was equally difficult for the zero and the nine.

(From the up tees, it is a good sight easier at 150 yards.)

And the seventh green has to be seen to be appreciated...

Mark

Jim Nugent

Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2007, 11:14:37 am »
Quote
I find it interesting that in prof majors the par 3s typically play hardest relative to par whereas in handicap golf we don't get too many strokes when we play against a competitor like Old Man Par.


Par 3's are the toughest for pro's because they have to hit longer approach shots to the greens.  Pro's can hit most par 5's in two, sometimes with short irons, and putt for eagle.  They often have wedges into par 4's, setting up better birdies chances.  They are driving more and more par 4's, again putting for eagle.  

They never putt for eagle on par 3's.  They rarely hit wedges into them, but must hit longer clubs.  That extra length on the approach shots makes them harder to birdie, and almost impossible to eagle.    

That's also why par 3's are the equalizer for higher handicappers.  Average golfers can't reach par 5's in two, or often in three.  They don't drive the greens on par 4's, and don't have wedge left on 470 yard holes.  On the longer holes all those extra shots give them trouble, and boost up their scores.  

Not so on par 3's.  They can reach most of those with their approach shot.  So par 3's are, relatively speaking, longer for pro's, but shorter for the average guys.  

Michael Robin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2007, 12:11:41 pm »
CAPE KIDNAPPERS!!!!!

3 is a beast, 6 is one of the hardest holes on the planet, 8 is exacting and hard to keep the ball on the green if its blowing, 11 is downright scary from all the way back, and 13 is one of the toughest short 3s in the game.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2007, 05:25:50 pm »
Of the courses I have played more than once, the par 3s at Harbor Town stand out as both fabulous and difficult....especially from the tips.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2007, 05:51:27 pm »
Here's the view from the middle tee on GPI 17...


...and from the back tee!


Mark

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2007, 06:01:33 pm »
Mark Bourgeois,

I believe the Grove Park Inn owns the house and associated fountains and grounds.  The day my buddies and I played the course, I looked inside and around the grounds of the house:  house was vacant and being renovated.  We all noticed that the hole played from someone's yard.  I believe the 10th hole does as well.

Chris

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2007, 07:03:17 pm »
Royal Portrush was mentioned earlier, 6 (Harry Colt's) and 14 (Calamity) are two of the hardest shots you will come across.
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2007, 07:16:27 pm »
Chris

10 tee? I don't recall that.  Re 17, you're lucky NC doesn't have a "shoot the burglar" law!

Mark

Jim Nugent

Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2007, 07:52:37 pm »
I looked at the Unisys Scoring package online for the 2004 US Open at Shinnecock and the 2007 US Open at Oakmont.  Interestingly the par 3's played about the same with Shinnecocks greens slightly harder to hit in regulation than oakmonts (oakmonts 8th was the hardest to hit of any hole at either course but at 288yds it was silly). Here are the stats.

Oakmont                       Shinnecock
        score   %hit                  score     %hit
#6     3.31     42%         #2     3.26       43%
#8     3.45     27%         #7     3.41       33%
#13   3.11     66%         #11    3.33       50%
#16   3.32     50%         #17    3.21       45%

avg   3.298    46.3%               3.303      42.7%


Good stats.  ANGC may have both of them beat, though.  Here is how the par 3's played at last year's Masters:

4   3.4167
6     3.1891
12   3.4006
16   3.3045

Average = 3.328.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2007, 09:35:18 pm »
Mark,

I meant the 15th tee, not the 10th.

Chris

Bryon Vincent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2007, 10:36:30 am »
I agree that the classic open courses have difficult par 3s, especially in tournament conditions, but I think modern par 3s tend to be more difficult due to the more abundant use of water hazards.  

Take Victoria National for example.  All of the par 3 holes require target golf to a postage stamp green surrounded by trouble.  They are long and difficult under normal playing conditions.  

I challenge you not to look beyond USGA tournament conditions of shin-deep rough and blazing fast greens to analyze the hardest set of par 3s.  Under normal conditions, the player could hit a poor tee shot and still have a reasonable chance to escape with a par.
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Jim Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hardest set of par-3's in the world??
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2007, 07:11:10 pm »
You may be correct in alot of places Bryon, but not at Pine Valley. I don't care what the conditions are, if you hit a poor tee shot you are hoping to make a bogey...

Tags:
Tags: