News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« on: August 13, 2002, 06:59:46 PM »
I've been officiating at the Pa Open at William Flynn's Lancaster C.C. for the last few days and will be back tomorrow for the last round after the cut down to the low forty and ties.

Fellows, as far as I can see Lancaster C.C. basically has it all!

The golf course essentially posseses all the best of William Flynn--ie, tremendously solid architecture hole by hole, unbelievable variety, particularly on the par 4s, an interesting dose of quirk (in a section), par 3s that are in a rather tight yardage band but hard to score on since the par 3's error margins are apparently quite slim and two par 5s that aren't long but are both diversely complicated!!

We're also in a major drought situation in Eastern PA and the course is dry and firm and fast both "through the green" and also the green surfaces are firm (not as firm as they could be but firm enough to make players think twice about controlling their aerial shots as they might ideally like to)! The greens are also fast--for their overall slope! It seems like this course this week is really separating those that are putting well from those that aren't!

And then there's the overall topography of Lancaster C.C.! You'd have to see it to appreciate it but the topography (with the firmness) forces players on almost every hole to think seriously about the dangers of not controlling excessive tee shot length on many of them. There's every kind of topographical situation imaginable on the fairways (with the firmness)! Sideways slopes, some serious uphills slope, some downhill (in sections), a wide river cutting through the front nine, some creeks and narrow water hazards, combined with trees used brilliantly for strategy!! That's right, you heard the latter correctly--trees used brilliantly for strategy. Flynn advocated that---remember?

The course has it all, in my opinion and the drought situation has basically created the "ideal maintenance meld" of firmness "through the green", with green surfaces that are firm too (particularly in the afternoons).

That's a lot going for the course but the payoff is the greens themselves--BIGTIME! Many of them are hard to approach, many are well bunkered (so are many of the fairways) and they are HARD to putt. Lots of slope, a bit of interesting contour (greens with this much slope can often go light on contour) and they even have complex "grain" in their greens which some of the competitors hate but others appreciate in  sort of a respectfully inured way.

Lancaster has it all, in my opinion! I haven't heard a single player complain about the golf course (except some who have gone ballisitic about the grain in the greens).

I would say Lancaster could be consider primarily a combination members/championship course with heavy, heavy stress on the "championship" aspect of it!

There are some interesting things to talk about with this course this week that applies well to Jim Kennedy's topic of "length as it's own reward". With the firm conditions now at Lancaster you just can't believe how far some of the competitors are hitting the ball--but for any kind of reward they not only better hit it straight, they better also read the architecture and topography really well while they're attempting to hit it far or they'll pay in both bogies and "others"!

This week at Lancaster with its inherent architecture and also close to an ideal maintenance meld (despite or maybe even because of the drought) the cream of the field has really risen to the top!

William Flynn was really good--really good--and Lancaster, in his career inventory of about 40 courses, is probably in his top 4-5--maybe even higher!

Of course Flynn's #1 slot is reserved for Shinnecock which I have a sneaking suspicion, in the next 3-4 years, is going to the top!



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2002, 07:51:56 PM »
One aspect of Flynn's design work that impresses me is his
strategic use of streams. The Cascades and Huntingdon Valley would be two excellent examples. Does Lancaster
possess any streams, and if so, did Flynn do his usual good job of incorporating them into the design?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2002, 02:45:32 AM »
Craig:

He did a great job of incorporating streams on #4,5,6,12 etc and a river on #7.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bye

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2002, 04:22:05 AM »
Any buzz on the "new" nine?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RC (Guest)

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2002, 05:06:04 AM »
TePaul:

     Interestingly, many of the members expected the scores to be far lower due to the absence of any appreciable rough and the firm conditions caused by the drought.  Water usage has been cut back by 2/3.  You may recall that the PA Am was held at Lancaster 2 years ago and the winning score over 72 holes was 8 or 9 over.  It appears that on many of the holes any advantage to be gained through sheer distance is negated by the firm conditions and topography.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2002, 07:29:58 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for the detailed report.  Lancaster has been a course I'm most interested in seeing, and after hearing from you, I can appreciate how it made Tom Doak's "31 Gourmet Choices".

I'm surprised to hear that they cultivate grain on the greens, however, similar to Huntingdon Valley.  I must admit that I really like that, and I wonder if it's simply nostalgia from the courses I grew up playing, or if it just adds another dimension of imperfection to a game that is becoming too sanitized.

It also sounds as though the topography is typical Flynn...meaning fairly hilly!  What Philly region Flynn course would you compare the property to?  For instance, is the land as steep in places as Lehigh or HV?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2002, 07:12:21 PM »
MikeC:

I can't really think of a course in the Philly region that compares to Lancaster topographically.  Sections of it do maybe but there's a little of everything really and it's a classic Flynn routing of really just rolling across the landscape almost every which way!

I forgot to mention a very special feature about the routing but it needs some explanation and I can't get into it at the moment.

The grain in the greens I really don't think is as much by design as at HVGC--it may just be the style of maintenance practices at Lancaster (very light on verticutting), and it's nowhere near as prevalent as HVGC.

+2 for 54 holes won the tournament and as to why the course isn't easy to score on is complex--but much of it is what I mentioned last night!

It was a great finish too with the Terry Hertzog from my course winning in a playoff on #18--one helluva finishing hole!! It's a straightforward hole but a long uphill tough one mostly made by basically a natural landform green with back to front slope that gives players fits both approaching and putting!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2002, 04:17:25 AM »
There's another interesting feature of Lancaster that deserves mention but probably deserves some historic research as well to determine the accuracy of. That would be the entire subject of Lancaster's bunkering!!

The bunkering at Lancaster is very good! It's very well placed (for strategic consequence) and it looks great to me. But where the bunkering is on the golf course and where it isn't seems to have plenty of application to something William Flynn remarked about and wrote about. That would be that Flynn felt where he found interesting natural features for use in golf he really didn't think it necessary to build bunkering. Where he felt that holes needed enhancing for golf (because they didn't have enough natural feature interest) he put in the bunkering to create or enhance the hole and its strategy.

It appears from C&W that some holes at Lancaster may have been remodeled slightly by the Gordon's (possibly the very neat little #16 and some others). But William Gordon worked his entire career before Flynn died for Flynn so there seems to me to be a consistency on the course with Flynn's bunker style with what the Gordons may have done!

But there's another real irony here--and I'm putting it very quietly on this post in the Lancaster thread since it might otherwise create another firestorm of controversy on Golfclubatlas.

That is that basically the way the bunkers at Lancaster, particularly their surrounds, look right now with their sort of rugged and "evolved" fescue surrounds are probably almost exactly what Merion's bunker surrounds would have looked like in their restored state if Hanse & Co. had done the bunker restoration project at Merion!

It is getting to be common knowledge that the bunkering of Merion (and some of the architecture) changed quite dramatically in look and in play between Merion's creation in 1912 and how the course was throughout the teens and even from the photos of the early 1920s and what it finally came to look like in say 1934 (when it appears it can be said the course was finally finished in both design and detail!!). I think it's becoming quite clear that the reason for that changed look of Merion's bunkers (and some of its architecture) in that rather long time span (maybe up to 22 years) had to do with the general plan to upgrade all the architecture and detail of Merion (including the bunkering) by Hugh Wilson, William Flynn and Joe Valentine!

Wilson had planned this general upgrade in the early 1920s but he died unexpectedly in early 1925. The "upgrade project" was carried out in detail by Flynn (and Valentine?) following Wilson's death. We know this because we now have Flynn's very detailed hole by hole architectural drawings of Merion (from the mid 1920s) and they very much match the photos of the early 1930s! So it can be seen that the course was "upgraded" as per the plans almost exactly!

Flynn also built Lancaster in 1920 (before the Merion upgrade)! There is definitely a close similarity in bunker style between the two courses although there's a bit of a difference too! The difference could have as much to do with some of the general topographic differences between Lancaster and Merion as anything else and might explain why the Merion bunkering became known as the "White Faces". To me that explanation probably has much more to do with the exact placement of bunkering in Merion's topography (very much on  broad upslopes for real visibility) as anything else!

Could it even be possible that Hugh Wilson himself may have collaborated with Flynn to some extent on the design of Lancaster or its details? They were very close friends at the time of Lancaster's creation and they had actually planned to form a design partnership. Unfortunately there seems to be very little documentation left on Hugh Wilson himself and what he actually may have done elsewhere!

But what's additionally interesting is the bunker project at Lancaster with it's rugged fescuey surrounds was not popular  at first. Apparently the members thought it was too penal, too grassy and too rugged.

I'm not certain what's been done to those surrounds at Lancaster since Hanse redid them in 1996 or so but now they look really great to me--and I think the players this week liked them very much and understood the grassy rugged significance of them. I would say what may have happened is the fescue on them has been allowed to tone down a bit.

But here's the additional irony! I asked a very well informed member of Lancaster how the membership of Lancaster liked the present rugged fescue bunker surrounds. He said many members didn't like it and apparently would prefer bunker surrounds that were smoother with more closely mown blue grass on them!

This happens to be the way much of the Merion surrounds are right now after the Fazio/MacDonald bunker restoration!

How ironic is all that?

I also asked that well informed member if it was likely that Lancaster might go to that smoother blue grass bunker surround look (that much of Merion's bunkers now are).

I believe he didn't actually say anything but shook his head in a definite "no" which appeared to me to indicate he meant "he hoped not"!!

I really hope not too!!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2002, 06:52:32 AM »
Tom;

Pretty ironic!

I know the drawings you're talking about, and it's clear that the mid 1920's changes and really almost redesign of several holes at Merion are almost exactly as Flynn and Wilson envisioned them, althought it's interesting that Flynn's is the only name attached.  History seems pretty clear, however, that he was working directly with Wilson, and having started his own design business by then, it's not tough to understand that he would have been the one to do the hole drawings.

Still, it also seems to be a case where the student went on to surpass his teacher, and it's important to note that Flynn had already created several great courses on his own at that point, including Lancaster!

I do have a few comments/questions re: the bunker surrounds, and I'll keep it to the finer points of architecture, less editorial commentary.

I haven't seen the bunker surrounds at Lancaster yet, but your description of "fescue surrounds" sounds beautiful visually, but potentially problematic from a playability standpoint.  Depending on maintenance management of these areas, I could see where they could possibly become frustrating for a membership in terms of lost balls, etc.

I'm also not sure that I'd characterize the bunker restoration work that Gil and company did at Merion (such as the 7th and 9th) as "fescue surrounds", because I'd be concerned that I'm creating the wrong visual impression to those who didn't see it.  I prefer the term "naturally integrated", which I think is more descriptive.  

By that I mean that the bunker edges just sort of naturally dissolved into the next adjoining transition area.  On the 9th, for instance, the greenside bunkers are bordered by "first cut" of rough, and as such, there is no fescue that acts as a border between the sand and first cut.  

I'm including the picture of Gil's restoration work on that hole from this site below, by way of illustration.



If you look at Geoff Shackelford's "Golden Age" book on page 69, it's an interesting comparison.  I have a picture from virtually the same place as the photographer in Geoff's book at home, and the pictures are truly identical.  I will see what I can do to get that one digitized.

Contrast that approach with the picture of the righthand greenside bunkers on 7 that Tommy recently posted (his server is temporarily down, or I would have included it here), which in fact were "fescue surrounded".  In that case, the bunkers are located in the rough hillside bordering that green and OB fence, and the fescue look was indicative of the severity of the trouble as well as integrated with the surrounding severe trouble on the hillside.  

I think that's the reason so many of us liked them so well, and the reason they appeared so natural.  In a way, they were "bunkers without borders", because of the way they transitioned so well into whatever surrounded them.  In the case of Merion, those transitions included first cuts of rough, broken ground, some scraggly, raw patches, fescues, lovegrass plantings, wooded areas, etc..  They matched the inconsistency of the rest of the land perfectly.

It's also the reason that clean-cut, bluegrass sod surrounds placed around bunkers on older courses fail to achieve that same beautifully integrated look...unless, of course, everything else "off the fairway" is the same consistent bluegrass.  

Simply put, that's the reason that Augusta's bunkers can look very good, as well, in my opinion. The sharp, clean look of their bunkers appeal to the eye to a great extent because their is no "break" or transition from their immediate surrounds out further....because everything flows cleanly and uninterrupted from the edge of the bunkers out to the tree lines.

In the case of Gil, I know his group loves to build rugged looking bunkers and they are truly exceptional in that regard.  But, similar to the comment you heard, I understand that some memberships are not quite as appreciative of that approach as we might be, probably because the bunkers are throwbacks to another time, and certainly play effectively as hazards.  Still, for people coming at the game from a modern mindset, they require a bit of an adjustment in thinking.  

I wasn't aware that he had restored the bunkers at Lancaster, but had a couple of questions.  

Are the bunkers at Lancaster built with "fescue surrounds" in every case, or would you describe them as more "naturally integrated", if I've explained the distinction understandably?

In watching play, was it sometimes better to be 'in the bunker' than just outside it?

Do you know if the restoration was to a certain time period in Lancaster's history?  In other words, was their evidence of those type of surrounds in historical photos?

I ask, because having had the opportunity to see some of Gil's superb "restoration" efforts at places like Fenway, Plainfield, and Downingtown, he seems to be a stickler for sensitive historical detail.  

Thanks again for your very interesting report!

I've included a few pics of Hanse's Tillinghast restoration of Fenway below by way of contrast, as well as two from his original course at Inniscrone that incorporates transitions to a fescue area.












« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2002, 07:52:12 AM »
One other thing..

Apologies to GeoffreyC for once again displaying his predicament on Fenway's 15th.  ;)

I'm sure he'll return the favor!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2002, 09:10:44 AM »
Gil built some great bunkers at Rustic Canyon as well.  :)



sorry Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2002, 09:46:58 AM »
Geoffrey;

Who is that guy with the wretched address posture?  How about his alignment?  He'd better have that clubface opened about 80 degrees based on where he's aiming in relation to the flagstick!

Thanks a lot.  Not only public embarrassment, but the torture of having to look at my own shortcomings, as well!   :P

Speaking of integration with bunkers, wouldn't it be cool to see a fairway cut right to the near-edge of that mid-fairway bunker in the pic?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2002, 10:03:05 AM »
Mike - yes it would be great to see fairway all the way to each of the central hazards at Rustic Canyon.

I think your setup looks quite nice.  Me on the other hand struggled mightily (thanks Ran) to get my bogey on the short 15th at Fenway  :P .  I hit the pin and had a tap in bird next time I played there however.  Last time I holed out for an 8! thats what makes this a GREAT short par 4.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

RC (Guest)

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2002, 10:18:49 AM »
TEPaul:

    As a follow up to your comments regarding the native grasses around the bunkers at Lancaster, when Hanse conducted the restoration project, the back was done first.  The native fescue did not grow in as intended.  When the front was redone, it took hold as intended.  As a result, the fescue on the front has been kept low until such time as the fescue on the back is redone.  That project is intended to begin next month.  Once completed the fescue on both front and back will be allowed to grow to its full length.  There is no plan to remove it or mow it down .
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2002, 11:26:37 AM »
RC;

Congratulations on what sounds to have been a very successful Pennsylvania Open!    

In the matter of the bunkers and fescue surrounds, I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind;

Does the fescue completely surround the bunkers, or are the "near-ends" regular golfing grasses with the fescues towards the "back-ends" and along rough lines?

Was there an effort during the restoration to take the club to a particular point of its history?  In other words, do historical photos indicate that William Flynn built a particular bunker type and surround that is consistent with the fescue approach?

Are fescues part of the look of the course "off fairway" in other spots, as well as near the bunkers?  Has that always been the case, or is that part of a more recent maintenance decision?

Thanks for your feedback and congratulations again! :)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

RC (Guest)

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2002, 04:21:16 PM »
Mike:  Thanks for your kind words.  I will do the best I can to answer your questions.
First, the extent of the fescue tends to depend on the bunker.  It is probably fair to say that by and large the bunkers are completely surrounded by fescue.  However, on many of the tee side of many fairway bunkers and some greenside bunkers with steep faces and low back sides, the fescue tends to be shorter and more sparse.The gradual transition from the normal rough to the fescue is very natural.  Where the fescue ends and the actual bunker begins is not narrowly defined.  On those greenside bunkers that are steep on all sides, the fescue is fairly thick the entire way around and flows well down the bunker faces.  The contrast between this very thick stuff and the rough is significant.  It would probably overstate things to suggest that fescue is a significant part of the course off fairway.  A photograph taken above the 7th green in 1930 suggests that it was much more prevalent off fairway before the the trees had fully grown in.

My understanding of the restoration process is that the intent was to restore the course to the original Flynn ideals.  It is difficult to say, however, whether a specific year was chosen because Flynn apparently tinkered with the course until his death.  In fact holes 3, 4, 5 and 6 were designed by Flynn 18-19 years after the original course was laid out.  Some of the early photos that I have seen suggest that the reintroduction of fescue around the bunkers is consistent with the course's origins. If Mr. hanse takes a look at this thread, I am sure he can provide significantly more information and will hopefully correct any misinformation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2002, 06:48:21 PM »
Mike Cirba:

That's a specific and detailed post of yours with many very specific questions about the bunker surrounds of Lancaster, how those surrounds "transition"  out to surrounding areas and such--with other questions about the actual length of the fescue here and there etc.

It appears, although I don't know who RC is, that he knows a good deal more about Lancaster than I do--or certainly more than I noticed this week.

I'm not real sure of the answers to those questions you asked about fescue length, transitions away from bunkers and such but I would only say that the golf course looks really good, it looks natural, it looks unformulaic, it looks like a golf course designed some decades ago was supposed to look and play, in my opinion.

Watching group after group come through the entire course in the Pa Open and talking to so many of those guys that I know, to me anyway, is about 1000 times more valuable in understanding all about the golf course than going out and playing that golf course myself-one, two or a number of times!! And I really mean that. The reasons are pretty obvious, I'm sure!

I hate to say it at this point--although I do promise to do much more research on the course but whatever the bunker surrounds were like grass-wise, height-wise, degree of difficulty between being in the bunker or being in a particular surround, or being in a transition area away from the bunker or even the rough itself (which was not thick but burned out fast and dry) really is not of much consequence! The reason being is the entire course was unformulaic and "iffy" (once off fairly obvious areas). In my opinion, that's the way a golf course like that should be!

And I hope you understand how I mean that because you asked some very specific questions which certainly deserve answers!

I'm sure we will get the answers--maybe Gil will supply some, maybe RC will--whatever--but the point is the course was playing the way it's supposed to.

The overall point is that the players in the Pa Open had to play the topography of the golf course because the conditions were so firm (and they had to play it smart--I promise). If they got off the fairways with their long shots they very much took their chances with "luck"! The ball could have gone anywhere--into trees, into bunkers--into adjoining fairways, creeks, bushes--OB--who knows?

That's the way a course like Lancaster is supposed to be--there's nothing remotely "formulaic" about any of it!

Let's put it this way--for really good players, it was pretty obvious where you needed to go to avoid trouble but if you happened to go in other places anything might happen. There was so much of that there this week that players really weren't even in a frame of mind to complain. They seemed to understand the real distinctions between good thinking combined with good execution and poor thinking combined with good execution and anything less positive than those two. I'm sure you know what I mean by that.

And given all that, the possibilities of intelligent recovery and intelligent course management were almost endless.

I'm sure MikeC, you're beginning to get the picture and you fully understand what I mean.

As for the actual bunkering surrounds they appear to be sort to clumping, slipping, cupping, grassy here but not there, basically looking like they've evolved on their own over many years or even decades!

Some people, I do understand, will say that bunkers that look and play like that are falling apart or look like they are! But I think not! They're exactly as they're supposed to be--they're exactly how they're supposed to play--iffy and unpredictable!

Nothing much, if you get off areas that are pretty obvious--if you have any understanding of architecture, and how to read it--is particularly guaranteed or dependable!

I think that's the way it should be and other than the confusing grain on some of the greens, apparently not a single player in the Pa Open thought otherwise either!

You can't do much better than that--I think!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2002, 07:24:19 PM »
I'm surprised there is no mension of the Gordon holes, eveidently they must meld well with the originals.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2002, 08:37:55 PM »
Tom MacW:

There's no mention of the Gordon holes by me because I don't know what they really are yet--or to what degree. A very good source told me that one was #16, and today I think that hole is a really beauty. I was told Flynn's original green was basically straight-away with the green perched somewhere up the hill directly at the 17 tee!

Now, it's a little down the hill dogleg left with a fairway bunker scheme that squeezes the player in on both sides with anything more than an iron! More than that, though, is the treeline down the left side you have to get far enough down the fairway to have a shot at the green or else out to the right near the rightside fairway bunkers.

This type of hole with trees used as the primary strategic consequence is totally Flynn.

It's possible, for the truly aggressive player to try to drive the green, although to do it you'd have to hit it from the tee over the quite high trees directly at the green to a diagonal space in front of the green which is almost nothing.

Stu Ingraham, from Overbrook, who everyone knows is sort of otherworldly long got to the tee told me he'd already had 36 putts, took out his driver and launched it over the trees right at the green. He ended up 3 step in front of the green to the right, made a simple chip and a 3 ft putt for birdie! The green is definitely harder to hit, or get near, than Riviera's #10.

But he tried it, he basically did it and made a simple birdie! He took a huge risk and got his reward---but that's what it's all about!

Although the hole is a dogleg and downhill--still it's 357yds long!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2002, 10:00:58 PM »
What a GREAT thread!!!

When we can't exactly point out what it is that we inherently LOVE, when the variables are so complex and factored into the design so integrally that we can't break them apart, I think we're starting to really get into the details of what makes GREAT course features, and what is so wonderfully enigmatic about natural, integrated architecture.

Thanks so much for your responses Tom and RC!!!  Your somewhat uncertain responses speak volumes, in a VERY, very good way!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2002, 03:47:35 AM »
RC:

Hmmmm? Holes #3-6 were built by Flynn 18-19 years later!? That's very interesting! Where then were the original four holes that they took the place of in the main routing that Lancaster has used for years? Somewhere over by what used to be called the "Sunset Six" on the other side of the clubhouse?

I always assumed that the "Sunset Six" holes fwere built later because holes 3-7, and #12 were so prone to flooding from the river. But if 3-6 were built that much later (18-19 years) they had to have taken the place of something else. This is starting to make more sense to me particularly since that good source at Lancaster mentioned that Flynn was on contract with Lancaster for years!!

Talk about "shifting gears" in look and feel on a golf course, after you've played #1! The stretch from #2 through #8 is a major league "gear shift" from the rest of the course. In a way it's a bit like the midsection stretch at Merion (7-13) for a different look and different feeling in playability!

That had to have occured to Flynn! I can't imagine that he could have failed to pick up on that fact! I wonder if he might have gotten that idea from Merion itself and transitioned Lancaster into that those years later. Or maybe there's some other logical reason that had to do with necessities at the club (Lancaster C.C.) itself.

I'd really like to get to the bottom of this kind of thing though since Wayne and I are researching everything about Flynn right now and there seem to be similarities in many of the things that Flynn started doing (even on paper--actually particularly on paper) that appear to be uses and vestiges from other courses--even very likely Pine Valley!!

So many of Flynn's courses (particularly on paper) were originally designed with segmented fairway patterns like Pine Valley turned out to be! I've never seen anything like that as early as Pine Valley had it! That seemed to be Crump's true departure from the Colt hole drawings at Pine Valley--those segmented fairway sections--much of the very thing that still makes Pine Valley so unique and so pyschologically scary for higher handicap players!

And then there's a real prevalence of "island in sand" green designs (also primarily on paper) from Flynn for a lot of his courses. That look and style had to come from Pine Valley too! Originally a full five of the greens at Pine Valley were basically "islands" almost totally surrounded by sand!

It's not really so unusual either that Flynn would have done so many interesting variations on the redan hole , I suppose, since that hole must have been very notable in early American architecture (NGLA's #4) but still even that's interesting.

Actually, a subject should be started on Flynn's style of the redan--he did so many of them in so many varied arrangements--sometimes even two on a single course!

It was a few years ago that John Ott said all this stuff, these similarities and such really aren't all that complicated since that early time (particularly the Philly and Penna schools of architecture) were all just a bunch of good friends collaborating with each other, maybe a lot here and there, maybe a little on other things but they all appeared to be well aware of what the others were doing.

It doesn't seem all that well documented but it appears that C.B MacDonald was always around some too.

Another interesting similarity is a hole at Concord C.C. that's gone now! On paper, and I presume once on the ground, this par 5 looked exactly like a Tillinghast par 5 with the 100 yds of cross-section bunkering or mounds at the midsection of the hole with the green-end swinging around in an interesting angle and orientation! Very similar in look and playability to some of the par 5s at Ridgewood, maybe even Baltusrol or the 7th at Pine Valley! Even the original #16 at Shinnecock had this enormous midsection feature, very reminiscent of Tillinghast, or whomever came up with the idea among those early group of friends and close collaborators.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RC (Guest)

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2002, 04:15:36 AM »
TEPaul,

   Your description of the original # 16 is correct.  The hole was modified in the mid 1960's.  I don't know if it was a designed by William Gordon or someone else, however, it was built by the club's staff.

Tom MacWood, with regard to the Gordon holes, other than the current # 16, all of the holes on the course are Flynn's.  There is a common misconception that William Gordon, exclusively, was responsible for 3, 4, 5 and 6.  This is not the case, although he assisted on the project, the holes were designed by Flynn.  It should be noted that the "Sunset Six" (originally 6 full holes now partially modified to accomodate a practice facility) was designed by William Gordon.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RC (Guest)

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2002, 04:49:16 AM »
TEPaul:

    Before the current 3 through 6 were constructed, two holes ran adjacent to the left side of the club's driveway where tennis courts and paddle courts now exist.  An old sketch indicates that these were the original 8 & 9 and that the ninth green was somewhere close to where the 10th tee is now.  The par 5 13th was two seperate holes, an uphill par 5 without the dogleg and a short par 3 which played to what appears to be the current 13th green.  Finally, there was a drop hole which played from somewhere near the back tee for the current #3 down towards the forward tee for the par 5 7th. The property on which the Sunset is laid out was not acquired by the club until the late '60's. The 18-19 year delay in constructing 3, 4, 5 & 6 was the result of a lack of land.  The club did not acquire the property on the other side of the river until the late '30's.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2002, 04:52:27 AM »
RC:

If Flynn did holes 3-6 that much later where were the original four holes that the present 3-6 replaced? They had to be somewhere because I know that Lancaster didn't have a 14 hole course in 1920! Actually, I hear Lancaster has Flynn's original drawings and maybe topo routing, probably from around 1920. I'd love to see that--it would explain all, I'm sure.

There's something else I haven't mentioned yet about Lancaster C.C. That would be the routing of the holes on the clubhouse side of the river.

I've always felt that Flynn is probably the genius router of all time and when I look at those two sections of holes--the first being #1 green, 8 green, 11 green, 15 green, 2 tee, 9 tee, 12 tee, 16 tee and the second section being #10 green, #17 green, #13 green and #11 tee, #14 tee and #18 tee!

How could anyone do any better than that for creating wonderful little "loops" of holes to play in all kinds of interesting combinations? For golfers who want to play any kind of combo for an hour or so in the evening you can't get better than that.

We also have some plans of "iterations" at Shinnecock that were never built that did the same thing! It's amazing the little loops that could have been used. Even today if you think about present Shinnecock the little hole loops and alternate routing progressions are amazing!

This kind of thing is so great for golfers going out in the evening or whatever but for tournament officiating it can be pretty nerve racking since there's so much golf going on at various greens and tees in an unbelievably confined space--it actually took a ton of concentration from the officials not to do anything to disturb golfers on those various close proximity greens and tees!

All very interesting! Flynn is getting more and more impressive to me every day!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Lancaster C.C. and the Pa Open
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2002, 04:53:37 AM »
RC
It sounds like the sunset six must have been the source of the confusion and the reason why Gordon was creditied with redesigning six holes at Lancaster. Then again Flynn's assistants were known to take credit from the old man on more than one occasion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »