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Dan Moore

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Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« on: September 28, 2007, 02:50:21 PM »
Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour

Esler and Forse on Langford and Moreau

•   Dave Esler gave us an informative overview of L/M and the artistry of their engineered style.  He also presented an overview of the stylistic connection to MacDonald and Raynor.  One aspect of the contention is the obvious similarity in look between the 1920's work of Raynor and L/M.  To demonstrate his thesis Dave presented examples of Macdonald/Raynor templates in the work of L/M.  Just at Spring Valley one can see elements of the classic “Short” hole (3rd), a “Cape”( 6th), aspects of an “Eden” (11th) and a “Sahara” hole (14th).   Dave however felt L/M were less tied to templates and incorporated more original strategy into their designs.  

•   Ron Forse’s presentation on Langford/Moreau was entitled “The Other Forgotten Genius.”   Ron gave an interesting overview of Langford’s influences which included the fact Langford admired Walter Travis.  It would be useful to know more about this influence and what it derived from; was it Travis’s appearances at the major tournaments in Chicago when Langford was growing up, was it due to visits to Garden City when Langford was at Yale or Columbia University, or from Travis’ writings and role as editor of American Golfer?  What aspects of Travis' style can be found in Langords work?  Ron also discussed Langford’s influence on Pete Dye in Indiana through the Culver Academy and Maxinkuckee courses including Dye’s mistaken belief that West Bend, which Pete had seen while working on Blackwolf Run, was an amazing Raynor course.   Apparently Pete thought all along that the courses he had seen and played in Indiana were Raynor courses when in fact they were Langford Moreau.  Langford's style is very apparent in Dye's platform greens and flat bottomed grass faced bunkers.  Ron also gave several informative examples from Lawsonia and West Bend of the attention to detail which went into a L/M bunker or green.  In particular Ron postulated that L/M features, despite being highly engineered, artistically fit into the landscape because of the care that was taken to balance the cuts and fills and that this balanced use of on-site materials  enabled their highly engineered features to fit gracefully into the their surroundings without looking out of place.    

•   Both Esler and Forse agree the work of Langford and Moreau deserves much wider recognition than it currently receives.  An egregious example related by the Director of Golf at Lawsonia is the fact Lawsonia has failed to get enough Golf Digest reviews to be considered for the GD top 100 list.  Apparently GD’s raters make it to Kohler only to stay and play the Meadows, Valley and Irish courses instead of heading an hour west to Green Lake after playing the Straits.    

Spring Valley

•   Architect Dave Esler captured Spring Valley (1924) perfectly when he described it like finding a 40 year old Porsche that has been left in a barn untouched.  You know you have something really, really special but it would take a lot of work to bring it back to its full potential.  

•   Most us agreed SV is a very solid design with prototypical L/M built-up greensites and a superb set of five par 3's.  The course embodies the central theme of Langford’s essay “What is a Championship Course” which states the distribution of yardage to challenge all aspects of one's game is more important than total yards in creating a championship test.  With its terrific greensites and unique distribution of yardage between five par 3's, a 280 yd par 4 and a five 400+ yd par 4's the course indeed challenges all parts of the game and plays much longer than the yardage on the card might indicate.      

•   We can only hope the owners follow some of Dave’s advice on recapturing green sizes and avoiding unnecessary tree planting.  As is, it remains the best sub-$25 (at the highest rate they charge) course in the country until someone finds another that is better.

West Bend

•   I think West Bend (1930) shows L/M work was evolving at the end of the 1920's toward  bolder features and green sites.  The dramatically raised plateau green on the 1st, the San Andreas swirl on the 3rd green and the imaginative use of very bold terrain on 7 put an exclamation point on this for me.  Where would they have been in 1940 if the depression hadn’t halted virtually all new course construction?  

•   It was fascinating to see Mike McGuire’s array of old aerials and L/M’s original 18 hole plan.  One can’t help but wonder how well regarded WBCC would be if they back nine had been built according to L/M’s plan.  

•   The maintenance meld at WBCC was ideal.  Greens were running 10-11 and reasonably firm.  With green recapture in process and expanded playing corridors due to judicious tree removal the course looked and played great.

•   Dinner in the Langford Room with the Moreau family and fellow GCAers was a treat.  Ted Moreau’s display of Moreau family photos and information was very informative.  Ted Moreau’s comments about this Tour being first stage of an effort to bring more recognition to L/M was supported by those in attendance.  

Lawsonia

•   Lawsonia (1930) continues to improve.  Tree removal continues as does green and fairway recapture.  The 10th and 18th greens are now almost completely recaptured.  Additional bunker restoration is being contemplated including restoring the bunker of the left of the par 3 7th.  

•   Lawsonia’s greens had been aerated that week so any comparison is unfair.  However many of us couldn’t help but wonder how great Lawsonia could be if maintained to the same standards as WBCC.

•   Brat Slippage.

Ozaukee

•   For me the highlight of the trip was Ozaukee.  I had played there a couple of times in High School and could only remember the reputation for some wonderfully contoured greens.

•   The reputation slapped us in the face on the first, at least those of us like me silly enough to be long with our approaches to the green.  The first green featured a significant back to front slope that made putts from the middle or back to the front hole location treacherous at best.  

•   Throughout the round we were confronted with a variety of slopes, shelves, contours and tiers that made the greens some of the most interesting I have seen anywhere save Crystal Downs.  

•   Due to rain and sleet Tom Doak quit  his tour of Ozaukee at the turn.  That is unfortunate as I didn’t think the course really kicked in until the 8th hole.  The stretch from 8-14 is as good as it gets and 16 and 18 shine as well.   A very strong back nine.  All Ozaukee seemed to be missing was a dynamite short par 4.  

•   The greens and flow of the holes was very typical of L/M but beyond those characteristics  Ozaukee did not seem like a L/M course.  I didn’t see anything resembling a L/M bunker until maybe the 9th or at least until Ron Forse’s remodeled 16th.   This was explained once we met Ron Forse in the clubhouse and had a chance to examine the original blueprint of the course and an old aerial photo.  Ron explained the aerial showed that the original design was not fulfilled and many of the bunkers in the original design were never built.  The aerial also shows a much more open expanse of land.  Perhaps the absence of bunkers as designed led to a tree planting program that now obscures some of the best playing angles.

•   Ozaukee was built in 1921 and opened for play in 1922.  Its hard to say which if any of the bunkers there today represent the original style of bunkers that L/M built.  However from time to time one could see the remnants of grassed over bunkers in the trees (most notably on the inside of the dogleg on #2) or along the tree line (#3).   These bunkers are much lower in profile than the “gull wing” earthwork bunkers one sees at SV, Lawsonia and WBCC.  They are similar to bunkers I have seen at Bryn Mawr and Ridgemoor in Chicago which were also earlier courses.  Did their bunker style evolve?  I’m beginning to think so.  

•   In any event the current bunker style at Ozaukee is not consistent with a L/M course.  This is dramatically apparent in comparison to Ron Forse’s 16th hole with restored L/M bunkers.  An extension of this bunker style throughout the entire course along with recapturing some of the bunkers missing from the original plan and a systematic tree removal plan would greatly enhance the course aesthetically and strategically.

•   Like Lawsonia and Spring Valley Ozaukee featured 5 par three holes.  George Thomas recommended the use of 5 par 3's to help the routing take full advantage of landforms and features of a property.  That was certainly the case at Ozaukee with the par 3 ninth enabling a return to the clubhouse after the exceptional par 4 8th.    

Anyone up for Wakonda next year?  

"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

BCrosby

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2007, 03:05:41 PM »
Dan -

Wonderful summary. It kills me that I couldn't be there.

First question - what is a "brat slippage"?
Second question - can I get one over the counter?

Bob
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 04:45:30 PM by BCrosby »

RJ_Daley

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2007, 03:40:15 PM »
Dan, as I had coincidentally mentioned on the thread I just started, historical context, and appreciating details in their historical context is something I believe makes our discussions on GCA.com and our understanding much richer.  You have certainly exhibited this deeper understanding through your admirable research on L/M.  You are the go-to man for people wishing to appreciate their work.  

Of course the professional restoration architect Ron Forse is THE MAN, with Dave Esler also being a professional architect that has made a good study of the L/M contributions to GCA.

Your summary, is in my view one of the best ever contributed on GCA. com

I could just kick myself that I couldn't muster the cojones to continue down to Ozaukee after Sat.  It is obvious that along with the rare treat of playing the course, I missed an even rarer treat to hear Ron Forse's talk.  

Great going Dan...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adam Clayman

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2007, 04:34:15 PM »
I'm with Bob. It was a once in a lifetime event and kills me to have missed.

Dan, You, RJ, Phil and everyone else who helped make arrangements for this tour have elevated GCA.Com events to a level that will be hard to surpass.

Very well played.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Evan Fleisher

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2007, 05:09:32 PM »
Dan -

Wonderful summary. It kills me that I couldn't be there.

First question - what is a "brat slippage"?
Second question - can I get one over the counter?

Bob

Bob,

Ask and 'ye shall receive...

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=31135;start=0

And YES...you can get one OTC!!!  8)
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 12.2. Have 24 & 21 year old girls and wife of 27 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

paul westland

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2007, 09:11:07 PM »
Dan: Kindest regards for your scholarly review of a brilliantly routed tour; a gentle opener@SV, WB's voluptuous seduction, and Lawsonia's rock steady presentation of expansive variety. Regret missing Ozaukee... .  Massive thanks to Dick Daley and Phil McDade, post Doctoral gentlemen....love those GULLWINGS!  Repetez sil vous plait.  

Phil McDade

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2007, 10:00:35 PM »
For me, the highlight of the tour was West Bend, and I've gone into some detail on a previous thread about its virtues. Part of its initial appeal to me (as I make annual pilgramages to Lawsonia and Spring Valley) was its almost mythical, cult-like status in Wisconsin -- hang around with enough old-time golf nuts in the state, and you'll eventually hear someone say "you've got to see the front nine at West Bend." The course keeps a fairly low profile, and rarely gets talked up in the way that privates such as Milwaukee CC or Blue Mound do, or the state's high-profile public courses.

But, boy, is it a wonderful nine holes -- L/M on steroids (perhaps an exaggeration, but not much of one). The volcano green of the par 4 1st, the use of the land contours on the par 5 6th and 9th, the 3rd green, and the amazing par 4 7th really do need to be seen in person to appreciate how L/M both used the land, and worked it, to produce nine truly compelling holes.

As Dan Moore is fond of saying, the sand-less Spring Valley doesn't need bunkers to extract extra strokes out of unsuspecting golfers. Played in wind gusts of 20-30 mph and the occasional rain, as we had for the first stop of the tour, and the course is that much tougher. There was much speculation among tour participants during the next few days about how SV could be "improved." Reflecting on my trips there, I hope it never does change -- a near-perfect mix of wonderful golf and wonderful architecture in a totally unpretentious setting. (What other course has a bordie collie roaming the grounds, the gravestone of a horse marking one tee, Old Style and polishes at the bar, golf hats for $9, a supply-your-own-golf-balls driving range, and owners who appreciate the course's classic-era architectural bones?)

The only regret about Lawsonia was playing it in the first weekend of September, after Wisconsin experienced record rains in August. The course from earlier summer reports was in ideal fast-and-firm conditions, and unfortunately we played it in very soft conditions. One point of debate: Ron Forse described the 239-yard par 3 10th (site of Shivas' famed brat slippage) as the second-hardest par 3 in the country behind ?? at Pine Valley. I think it's the second-hardest par 3 at Lawsonia, behind the near-Redan 203-yard 4th. Evan F. and I had a neat little debate about the two holes during our round together.

Ozaukee for me -- having never seen it before -- was a lesson in incongruity. Dan's correct about the internal greens -- lots of slopes and internal contours that make for a real test. Yet the green surfaces sat on greensites that, while holding some interest, were as a group largely unremarkable. Bunkering was routine, for the most part. I found several parts of the layout interesting, with some characteristic L/M blind or semi-blind shots (like the second shot at the par 5 2nd). The closing par 4 18th is a real brute of a hole, and a fun roller-coaster ride over the buckling land. But the course was overly treed, and featured mounding that either made little sense or simply looked ugly and out of place on a classic-era parkland course.

All of the presentations and dinners were a treat, and Ron Forse's talk really deepened an appreciation for just how engineered these courses are.

Of course, the best part was reacquainting with old friends and meeting new ones. GCA's role in all of that is something I'll always appreciate.





Eric_Terhorst

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2007, 11:12:20 AM »
Dan,

Thanks again for your work on the tour and your excellent summary.  

I'd like to see L&M get wider recognition--with some selfish limitations.  Given their influence on many who followed and how easy their courses are to enjoy, their work should be required study for all would-be golf course architects.

And the folks at Lawsonia have done such a great job revealing the brilliance of the design and engineering of the course, this project should be "required reading" for all those who are currently owners of, or charged with maintaining, or members of,  L&M courses, so that future cover-ups could be avoided.  

But as for Golf Digest and the patrons of Kohler, I'd be perfectly happy if they continue to ignore Lawsonia, as I have to believe that means lower green fees and more available tee times for those of us who appreciate it!

Dan Moore

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2007, 07:58:15 PM »
Phil,

I'm curious about your statement that Ozaukee's green sites were fairly unremarkable.  Unlike most L/M greensites many were more like fairway extensions and not as built up as the other courses we played.  In that respect they were different than what we expect from L/M.  They also were not bunkered to the extent we expect.  However, a couple of greensites I thought were quite remarkable;  8 and 14 for example.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Evan Fleisher

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2007, 09:34:24 PM »
8 was truly a great green, Dan...you are correct.  The multiple levels set back on the smallish palteua in the stand of trees seemed to work well.

But I also have to agree with Phil that by most other L&M standards we'd seen, their overall collection of greens did not stand up next to those at SV, WB, or Lawsonia.
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 12.2. Have 24 & 21 year old girls and wife of 27 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Phil McDade

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2007, 09:54:49 AM »
Dan:

Evan and I had some interesting side-bar conversations about Ozaukee's greens and greensites, and came to similar conclusions.

I'd differentiate between green contours -- which at Ozaukee are quite remarkable in many cases (the big internal mound on 15? springs to mind immediately; Evan played a neat little chip off the green and used the mound quite effectively to get his ball close to the pin) -- and greensites (which I'd define as the setting for the greens themselves). While some of the greensites at Ozaukee held my interest, most were of the extensions-of-the-fairway type you describe, with others being modestly pushed-up greens.

As you suggest, the dramatically pushed-up greens of the kind seen at Lawsonia or a West Bend may be an evolution of L/M's style and approach to defending par at the green. Yet the look of Culver (1920, according to C/W -- from the L/M tour handout; opened in 1924 according to Ran's GCA profile) features some of the pushed-up greens (like the Redan 2nd) of the kind you'd encounter at Spring Valley (1926, C/W) moreso than what we encountered at Ozaukee (built roughly in the same time frame). In a similar vein, the famous volcano par 4 15th at Harrison Hills (original 9, 1920, C/W) is eerily reminiscent of the 1st at West Bend (1931, C/W). The evolutionary theory of L/M's greensites would suggest a more chronological look to their work -- extensions of the fairways early, with more pronounced pushed-up greens later. Yet some anecdotal evidence suggests a more haphazard approach.

If that's the case (admittedly, a big if...), I'm curious what role money might have played in all of this. Lawsonia (maybe the most "engineered" 18 holes designed by L/M) was quite expensive to build ($250,000 in the middle of the Depression). Ozaukee was not built to its original plans, and its bunkers (expensive generally to build and maintain) are decidely un-L/M-like and were apparently not built to the specs of the original plan. West Bend is over-the-top engineered, but the club had only enough money to build nine. Culver's plans included 27 holes; only nine were built. Harrison Hills built only nine holes; was that as much L/M as the club could afford? Finally, the little L/M project west of Madison shows evidence of a bare-bones-budget L/M course. I'm wondering if the nature of their greensites in particular (certainly the most expensive part of their coursework) was less evolutionary and more based on how much money they had to build their courses. Maybe a journey to Wakonda (1922, C/W, and a course praised by Forse as very much in the classic L/M look) would tell us more.

Chris_Clouser

Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2007, 09:59:26 AM »
Dan,

Perhaps touring some of Langford and Moreau's work in Indiana would be a good visit.  Harrison Hills, Innisbrook and Culver would be a good group of courses to visit.  I'm sure we could find a few others.  

Brad Swanson

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2007, 10:02:14 AM »
Phil,
   I played Wakonda some 20 years ago, so my memory might not be spot on regarding the style of greens there, but I tend to think that they are more towards the West Bend end of the spectrum than the lower profile end.  Actually the 9 and West Bend really reminded me of my few rounds at Wakonda, but that could've been more a product of the heavily wooded routing and lightning fast greens and not so much of the architectural details.  The first 3 par 4 holes at Wakonda (1.3.4) were real ball busters back then and could probably still hold their own today.

Cheers,
Brad

Brad Swanson

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2007, 10:20:54 AM »
I have a thought or 2 to add after playing at Spring Valley over the weekend.  As much as I love Lawsonia, playing a few rounds at the  low maintenance, lower profile Spring Valley brought at least one shortcoming of Lawsonia into view.  When missing anywhere but short at Lawsonia, your recovery shot is almost always going to have to be a high pitch or flop.  Compare this to the very firm and faster playing Spring Valley where I actually bumped a number of recovery shots from the sides and behind greens yesterday with as much success as my poor bump-and-run skills will allow.  I got quite a thrill playing these recovery shots yesterday, and see the lack of this option at Lawsonia and at other L/M courses of the push-up green variety as a potential shortcoming.

Cheers,
Brad
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 10:38:05 AM by Brad Swanson »

Phil McDade

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2007, 11:09:10 AM »
Brad:

Interesting observation; one of my (Illinois!) playing partners yesterday kept saying "no bump and runs here" and on a couple of occasions (like at the 6th) short-sided himself on the wrong side of the green, and had mammoth uphill chips to the green. But another (Illinois!) player used the bump-and-run quite successfully on several shots; low skidders that sort of ran through some of the more pronounced internal swales at SV. A third player in our afternoon group was very successful with fairly high flop-ish shots. I think the hallmark of a very good course is that you can attack such shots in a variety of ways, and I saw a bunch of them yesterday.

Dan Moore

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Re:Random Thoughts on the Langford Moreau Tour
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2007, 01:17:51 PM »
Phil/Evan,

I agree with you that the locations of the greensites (as distinguished from the quality of the greens themselves) at Ozaukee are different and not as bold or dramatic as at WBCC, SV or Lawsonia which have simialr built up greensites.  

Phil,  Thats an inetresting theory about $$$ being the factor or explantion for the difference, one that warrants additional investigation.  However, Ozaukee (1920-21) was earlier than the others you mention including Culver and Wakonda and greesites on the other early courses I have seen so far are more like Ozaukee than the others.  I'd like to find a pre-1922 greensite that was like WBCC, Lawsonia or SV.  
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 01:18:18 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

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