How Far Will You Go???

[Todd_Eckenrode]

I sit here designing, and have come to a bit of a quandary that seems perfect for this jolly group.  Imagine a property that is nice, but not earth-shattering in character.  One slightly detached and remote piece of the property is truly astounding, though...rich in character and would undoubtedly be the highlight of the golf course.  A very good course could be built without including this piece, but 3 holes here would raise the bar.  The problem is, you would be presented with a bit of a hike.  What do you feel is an acceptable distance for such a hike, and what do you feel are the best examples of this working?

[brad_miller]

Todd, from what I've seen on this sight, but not my own eyes Highlands Links, talk with Ran when he returns from vacation. Good Luck.

[GeoffreyC]

Todd

That's a GREAT question.  I presume that you mean for this course to be walking.

The distance to walk could depend on where in the round the holes in question would fit.  For example, Ocean Forrest has a walk of (guess) some 250 yards at least from the 17th green to the 18th tee.  We wondered what the heck the reason for this could be but it really hit Bill V first and I agree with him that its a great spot for tension in a match or tournament to set in to a players head.  The walk from 16 to 17 at TPC Sawgrass isn't that long but it fits into a psychological ploy coming before the tee shot on #17.

So, I think if you can fit this walk into an important spot in the round it could work out as a plus.  

One walk I never quite enjoy is the walk from #9 green at Yale to the 10th tee.  That tee shot is hard enough without waiting for my pulse to slow down.

[Jeff Mingay]

Todd,

Brad gives a good (and probably the most obvious) example. The "hike" from 12 green to 13 tee at Stanley Thompson's Highlands Links (Cape Breton, Nova Scotia) is in the neighbourhood of 500 yards. It works, probably more than other long treks between holes elsewhere, because you walk along the bank of the Clyburn River -- a rock and pebble strewn stream that provides lovely scenery.  

[THuckaby2]

Todd - is this going to be a walking-only course?

Assuming it isn't, I don't need to preach this to you - you know the golf world works in carts anyway, no matter how much anti-cart feeling there is here at GCA's discussion group.  The reality of the golf world is that the 95% of the people who just take a cart anyway won't care at all where the next hole is... and for the 5% who walk, if the holes are good enough they won't complain.

So BUILD THEM!  If the property dictates such, let it happen, man.  Oh, you'll get plenty of backlash in here I'm sure - but as is my frequent rant, this is NOT the real golf world.

BTW, even if it is walking only, built-in shuttles handle this just fine.  Give the purists something to enjoy on the hike (nice view, neat path through woods) and then everyone will be happy anyway, as seems to be the case at Highland Links as described by Ran and Ben Dewar and others who've trekked up there.

TH

[SPDB1]

Tom's advice is spot on. Hudson Nat'l is a walking only course, and the whole course is laid out over some really severe terrain. The climb between 2-3 holes is assisted by a club cart and it's not a problem (unless you are an extreme purist).

And unlike what it sounds like you have on your hands, the property the club cart takes you too isn't even that spectacular, but used probably out of necessity.

[SPDB1]

I meant between the 2nd and 3rd holes. not 2-3 different holes.

[A_Clay_Man]

It really does boil down to what type of a hike are you talking about? Is there a chance it could be a beautiful stroll? Is it uphill?

I would guess that the question wouldn't be asked if the answer to those q's were purist/naturalist positive and not uphill.

So it seems that your design prowess will be put to the test building without it, and hopefully without cartpaths.

Your info about the remoteness of the site may hold the answer if you know who your clientel will be.

[A_Clay_Man]

Almost forgot what you wanted know.

About 400 yards flat, or 600 yards downhill, and 50 yds uphill.

[Tyler Kearns]

Todd,
        I have never been one who believed in the sanctity of short walks from green to tee. Why waste the potential for a great hole to save players from a 5 minute walk? If encountered with this scenario 3 or more times a round it would become labourious and frustrating. However, in the situation that confronts you, I say go ahead. I'd walk a long way to play some truely great and interesting holes. Good luck!!

[RJ_Daley]

I agree with Geoff and Tom.  I think you have to build the remote holes if they are that good.  I am hoping that you are talking about no more than 500 yards of relatively easy flat walking with some nice scenery on the way.  About 250-300 if rolling slightly, and if severe hike uphill, perhaps scrap the idea if it is over 250  yards.  The distance of a par 5 isn't that objectionable if the rest of the course walks great.  If there are other longish walks involved, then you just have to resign yourself to cartball except for the crazed and hardened walkers like Lou D., and take the punishment the rest of us will dish out!  

[Rick Shefchik]

I really don't understand why modern golf clubs with one long out-and-back trek don't make shuttles a standard part of their operation. I would strongly recommend using the exceptional land to build three great holes, and give walkers the option of being ferried to the Elysian fields and back.

I played a course outside Minneapolis this spring called The Ridges at Sand Creek. The upper holes were nothing special, but the lower holes were terrific, wandering back and forth through a densely wooded creek valley. You descend to this valley twice and come back twice during your 18 hole round, and the long uphill return both times is really a pain in the ass, even for a dedicated walker like me. The club provided shuttles back up the hill after the 17th hole, but not after the 7th hole, which I didn't understand. Both walks were equally long and tiring, and I was very grateful for the ride on the second ascent.

Seems like an easy solution to me.

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Great point Geoffrey, about the positioning of the round...at this point unanswered.

Definitely designing from a walking standpoint.  Carts will be a part of it, though, so unconcerned with that aspect.  The walk will be about 300 yds, slightly uphill for first 2/3 (though not severely), and slightly down the last 1/3.  The rest of the course is tight re. green to tee, so just this one instance (though it is 300 yds. there-play 3 holes-300 yds. back).

I wouldn't call it a scenic walk when looking to the sides, but you do have a clear view ahead, getting a nice sense of what's ahead, with the view slowly opening up the closer you get...all building a sense that something special is coming.

Any other good examples-not bad ones?

[Dennis_Harwood (Guest)]

The Quarry at La Quinta has such a grouping know as the "cove holes"  The members point with pride how those holes "make" the course with a shuttle cart available to take golfers to the holes(I would guess a 500 yard distance)--

An interesting side benefit to members of privale clubs (don't know what your assignment is) from such a routing sometimes is that you often end up with a 4 or 6 hole "short course" that can be played late afternoon or as a few extra holes to settle bets by skipping the "estended" holes--

Sometimes it just happens(The Valley Club's "interior" holes  were, I am sure, not planned), but for some members the short course is all they play most days--

[RJ_Daley]

Todd, Crystal Downs from 11 to 12 is about 300 yards or more, slightly uphill, and in such a nice setting one almost wishes it were longer!

Also, Tobacco Road 14-15 is a long hike, yet not really overwhelming due to the setting and pace of play in the round.

We all know how long it is from 9-10 at Kiawah Ocean of course.

[Jimbo]

Get the best golf holes possible.  Forget the distance between.

[Evan Fleisher]

Todd,

I agree with the others, and since your further clarification of the situation, I really say go for it!  If this is the only "significant" walk between holes, and the land is that special, don't pass up the opportunity.

Being a die-hard walker myself, nothing is too far.  The only examples I could come up with in my mind were a recent trip to Beechtree outside Baltimore (some long-ish walks between holes), and Sand Ridge in Chardon, OH (where you must cross an Audobon protected area bisecting the course...twice).  most other examples I can think of were more or less "cart" courses, so distance between holes was no big deal.

I don't necessarily think that the walk itself has to be all that interesting to entice/interest the walking set, especially if the reward at the end are some spectacular holes.  I hope this feedback helps.

[Mike_Cirba]

Todd;

I REALLY like the fact that you are even asking this question!!

So many of today's architects forget all about things like intimacy, continuity, flow, consistency, etc., and I can see from your question that you believe in building a "golf course", and not just a "collection of holes".  Excellent, really.

Rees Jones's Huntsville in northeast PA has a fairly long walk across a road between the 10th and 11th holes, but it gets the routing to a property that Rees convinced the owner to purchase.  On that side, there are 4 holes, and 2 of them are really excellent, another is good, and another, the last before you cross back over, is forced and strange.  At that point, with only four holes left to get back to the clubhouse, the routing becomes sort of forced and inevitable.  It ultimately leaves sort of a mixed reaction, leaving one to wonder if it was worth all of the trouble, necessarily.

So, my advice is to be SURE that you are going to get the most out of where you're going.  If you feel comfortable that you know what you want to do, and it's just as good coming back as going out there, then I'd agree with the others here and say, go out there and build holes worth the walk!

[John_Conley]

Hudson National had two "ferries" with golf car as mentioned by Spiderbite.  It is as much for the caddies.

Rick:  Where is the Ridges course at Wherever?

Todd:  Is the next hole after the walk a par 3?  If so, that may give the green a chance to clear better that it does when the tee is right on the edge of the green.  I suppose a third of a mile is the max without really raising eyebrows.  550 yards about.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Todd if the land in general is average, can you reroute holes to bring the better part into the loop without the walk. If not just build the new holes with the flow of the round in mind. There are so many real estate courses built today that one walk is almost no big deal now, even if we all think it is.

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Go for the memorability.  Make them want to walk it again.  
(And put a beer shack at the top of the hill.  The owner will make a fortune and think you're a genius.)

Dare I ask, "Where is this place?"

[Slag_Bandoon]

How far will I walk for golf?  Hmmm...Tasmania!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Todd,
I love this question, again kudos for asking.

Cape Breton sets the standard.

I think back to our trip in June and some of the more memorable conversations happen in that stretch.

It is not a gruelling walk, but Joe Robinson (Pro) noted that he has seen more high scores from tired legs after that walk.

From what you have described, 300 yards seems reasonable, especially given the "raise the bar" holes.

The only way it does not work, is if you are walking uphill to play a downhill shot.  That does not seem to be the case here.

In so far as how far will I travel?  If you raise the bar with three holes, tell me where and when, I will be there.

Ben

[Paul P]

If Tiger Woods is prepared to walk 350 yds between shots, then it's not too much to expect others to do the same.

You could compensate for the golfless walk from green to tee by hitting the ball more frequently in the following holes.  

[Brad Klein]

Great thread. I always thought the walks on Cape Breton Highland Links throughout the course but esp. after 12 made the day as you were invested in nature and not somebody's backyard. So it all depends on what you experience during that passage. I'd make it interesting, natural, and part of the experience rather than "excuse me, but you have this slog to negotiate." I disagree about shuttles. I think the distance is ideal as a transition, and it would also help your pace of play. I would put it midway in ether nine, if possible, but ideally the back nine, as that becomes more integral to one's memory of the round. The other thing I'd do, following Jim Engh, is make sure that the golf cart experience is visually stimulating as well, ideally at a different height and angle than the walking path. Why shouldn't riders get a thrill, too?

Todd, very important point. GCA is an obscure minority of the golf world. Most golfers will be on carts and not care or worry about the distance. Don't let the concerns of this group prevent you from maximizing the use of a site just because you're trying to adhere to certain abstract ruules. The best golf courses in the world all violate those rules, anyway.