[JohnV]

Since I will soon be in charge of a Junior Tour and will be defining all the rules for players and parents, I have been thinking about this a lot (in spite of my short answer earlier).

Parents should not interact with any child on the golf course.  If the kid asks for advice on the rules, find an official to give them a ruling.

If a parent or other spectator sees someone doing something they think is wrong, they should get to an official ASAP and let him deal with it.  Hopefully before the next hole if a possible DQ is involved or before the score card is turned in otherwise.

Good officials will speak to the kid (and the other kids) privately without the parents being around so they can speak more freely.

Gene, I'm glad to hear that your son spoke up.  Even if there had been no other witness and the kid got away with it, he would have known that he had been seen and that the next time would be worse if he got caught.  I'm also glad that the other person spoke up.

One thing that bothers me is that the kids know who is cheating and who isn't and they choose to ignore a lot of it.  I know they aren't wanting to cause trouble for the other guy or themselves, but the best thing they should do is tell an official and have him watch and deal with the kid.

[John Kavanaugh]

I am not advocating tee ball golf but there has to be a balance if you are going to have biweekly middle school matches at 3:30 in the afternoon.  Why do parents need to participate in every second of their childs life?

[JohnV]

I still seem to let guys get away with murder on red stake drops.  I hate these complicated rules.

John,

If having 5 options confuses you that greatly, how do you ever choose two from Column A and 1 from Column B at a Chinese restaurant?  

[Dan Kelly]

This is an area where "Tour worship" can actually be used as a plus.  And I'd run with it...

I think kids should get a video of Tour players telling them about the honorable tradition of the game, about their duty to protect the field, how knowing the rules can actually help your score (so it's OK if they hurt your score every once in a while) and most importantly, acknowledging that it's no fun calling penalties on other people or on yourself, but that golf is a gentleman's game (or gentlewoman's game) and that that's the way it's always been done and the way it has to be done if they want to play the game.  

I would intersperce the video with Tour footage of players calling penalties on themselves on Tour and some rules Q & A stuff.

I think that would go a long way toward solving this stuff if people like Tiger and Phil and Ernie and Annika and Lorena etc. did a nice DVD or something.

Great idea.

[Matt_Cohn]

John,

Richard's suggestion is similar to how San Diego Junior Golf ran (runs?) its events - parents and volunteers keep score in each foursome, with no other adults allowed on the course.

If it's real tournament play, kids must learn to keep each others' score at 13 or 14 years old. Send an adult along to observe, perhaps.

I would support playing by the true rules of golf from the beginning. While the rules can get complicated, they're based in equity, and it's not a total guessing game to figure it out. Compare them to the rules of football, for example.

Besides - water, OB/lost ball, unplayable lie, and sprinklers/cartpath, along with basic tee and flagstick situations, cover 98% of the rules situations out there.

John, that's basically 5 rules, which is how many you suggest anyway!

[JohnV]

Dave,

That is a great idea.  I've been considering a 30-60 minute class before events that first timers would have to attend.  Having a video like this would go a long way in that class.

[Dan Kelly]

We don't know of any golf organizations who have an interest in the rules and might have a bit of cash to pay for the making and distribution of that DVD -- do we?

[Rich Goodale]

Dan et. al.

The example I described was for beginning golfers, maybe age 8-12.  One of the cool things is that the markers are most of the best players in the club, who the kids look up to, at least in a sporting sense.  It's a cheaper--and more personal, and more effective--way of getting the point across than buying a DVD of Tiger telling them what to do.

I tend to think that the "no parents" rule is a good one, mostly for reasons of purity and the need to tqeach self-reliance, but I'm not (yet) the father of a golfer, and I also know that the rule would be a very hard one to enforce, given the nature of the game and of the sporting parent culture of this age.

Rich

[Powell Arms]

Dave,

That is a great idea.  I've been considering a 30-60 minute class before events that first timers would have to attend.  Having a video like this would go a long way in that class.

John,

My son has played in the Golf Assoc of Philadelphia (GAP) junior-junior tournaments (ages 7-10), and they do the rules seminar before the tournament for about 45 minutes.  There is no parent participation.  As suggested above, a parent or tournament official serves as the marker for each foursome, not with your own child.  

For this age group, GAP only runs one tournament a year, so adult assitance is not as difficult to come by as it would be in a weekly event JK describes.

I think the younger kids get much more from the hands on rules clinic than they would from a DVD.  For the rules clinic, they were on the course, discussing siituations in groups of about 10.  Being on the course and looking at examples of issues in person seemed to keep the attention of all of the participants.

I forget the name of the gentleman at GAP that coordinated the event, but I am sure you can track him down through your network.

Powell

[JohnV]

Thanks Powell.

I intend to be talking with everyone who runs junior events at associations over the next few months.

[Dan Kelly]

I tend to think that the "no parents" rule is a good one, mostly for reasons of purity and the need to tqeach self-reliance, but I'm not (yet) the father of a golfer, and I also know that the rule would be a very hard one to enforce, given the nature of the game and of the sporting parent culture of this age.

Rich

Rich --

I sense a bit of a dig in "the sporting parent culture of this age."

So I'll tell you ... why I go to as many of my daughter's matches and tournaments as I can.

It's very simple: I tag along to learn how she plays, and where the shots are going, so that I can help her learn how to play the game better.

That seems a pure enough motive to me.

And as for self-reliance:

The kids, as they're playing, are utterly self-reliant. Parents are not welcome to say anything, other than "Good shot."

[John Kavanaugh]

I think it has been proven that colder climates make for more peace loving people.

[Bob_Huntley]

I think it has been proven that colder climates make for more peace loving people.

John,

Tell that to Genghis Kahn.

Bob

[Tim Gavrich]

As someone who has been playing competitive golf since the age of 10, I feel like chiming in here.

The first multi-round competitive golf tournament I played in was a Plantations Junior Golf Tour (PJGT) event held in Saratoga Springs, NY about seven years ago.  I was in a foursome of players in the 10-11 age group.  We all kept someone else's score in addition to our own, and at the end of the round, everyone's scorecard was properly filled out.  No "parent marker" was necessary.  Parents were (and still are) allowed to watch their children and forecaddie (which was and is usually encouraged to speed up play).  I never experienced any problem with parent-aided cheating because there were usually multiple parents with each group.

The "no parents allowed" rule can never work in any significant tournaments because if Dad is going to pony up the cash for Little Lord Fontleroy's fee, he's damn well going to follow the little dickens.

I have some entertaining anecdotes from my junior golf experience, but  those can wait till another time.

Bottom Line: If you're going to play competitive golf, you are assumed to be cognizant of the rules, no matter your age.  A 10 year old is more than able to keep a proper scorecard in competition, IMHO.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tim,

I don't think we can go much further in solving the problems of junior golf with this thread without examples.  Tell us a good story.

[Brian Laurent]

The club I grew up on had an easy 6 hole beginners course...in order to earn playing priviledges on the big courses, you had to play it 3 times (consecutively) and score 90 or below while accompanied by one of the pros.  

Unfortunately, there are not many courses that require proof of ability and or knowledge of the game before setting them loose.  When I ran my junior clinics, my first lessons were always a rules and etiquette review...I can handle poor ability, but don't have much patience for poor on-course behavior.  In order to keep things moving, I would allow them one over par to reach the green and three putts to knock it in.

[Jim_Bick]

As a parent of a former junior golfer, I'd have loved to have been banned from the course. It's like Little League, except that your kid is at bat in the bottom of the ninth with two outs and the bases loaded 60'ish times in four hours. And if he comes through, the only reward is to do it again. The kids are fine with it but it's hard on parents, especially if you are facing a 2 hour drive home or, god forbid, a night in the Motel 6.

Seriously, the tours my son played on, (up to and including AJGA), forbid parent spectators from talking to the players at all. They also expected the kids to keep each others cards and sign them. There were very few problems and the kids seemed to me to live up to the high expectations.

That's what I'd recommend before anything more drastic.

[Bill Shamleffer]

The USGA actually has a publication "GOLF RULES IN BRIEF".  It is slightly larger than an index card and covers almost all of the rules that most of us need most of the time.

It is 75 cents through the USGA.

The R and A has a similar version posted on line.  Here is the link:
http://www.randa.org/shop/productfiles/RulesInBrief.pdf

[Rich Goodale]

I tend to think that the "no parents" rule is a good one, mostly for reasons of purity and the need to tqeach self-reliance, but I'm not (yet) the father of a golfer, and I also know that the rule would be a very hard one to enforce, given the nature of the game and of the sporting parent culture of this age.

Rich

Rich --

I sense a bit of a dig in "the sporting parent culture of this age."

So I'll tell you ... why I go to as many of my daughter's matches and tournaments as I can.

It's very simple: I tag along to learn how she plays, and where the shots are going, so that I can help her learn how to play the game better.

That seems a pure enough motive to me.

And as for self-reliance:

The kids, as they're playing, are utterly self-reliant. Parents are not welcome to say anything, other than "Good shot."

No dig intended at all for you, Dan.  I know from your posts above and elsewhere that your sharing of your daughter's golfing experiences is mutually enjoyable and unobstrusive.  In the quote above I was trying to relate how extreme parental involvement (as described by John and others above) can be particularly obnoxious in the special environment which is golf (wide open spaces, long periods of inaction/silence, reliance on the individual as both competitor and rules official, etc.).  Nothing else.

Sorry for not writing clearly enough.

Rich

[Adam Clayman]

I'm agin banning. What about caddies? Allowed under the rules, there is no reasn a parent shouldnt be allowed to caddy for the kid.

Identifying character is one of golf's greatest by-products. Identifying player's parents character, is doubly delicious and should be embraced not banned.

Rule 35 any offender.  Make sure they have been told of the consequence of their actions and all should be right with the world.

Almost forgot...
 A recent High School tourny was set-up at 6900 yards. Medalist shot 76. Is 6900 y too long for kids?

[Phil McDade]

Shivas:

I'll cite three others: swimming, track-and-field, and potental left tackles for football (if we're to believe Michael Lewis, and he tells a pretty interesting story in his latest book).

Any high school kid who can swim a 50-yard freestyle in @ 20 seconds, or run a mile in under 4:10, or is 6-7, 275 pounds and run a 4.5 40 is going to get noticed, no matter where he resides.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

John-

I worked a month under PGA Life member Tom Kuhn for the Metropoliton Section.

Tom is the former pro of the then IBM club. He is the 'starter' at the NY Open, etc. However runs the Junior tour during the summer. I wanted to work a bit under him to see how he handles the kids.

As follows;
For the ages of 7-10

The kids are recomended to report to the starters table 20 mins prior. A parent is then asked to participate in the group to write down scores and keep the pace of play. If there are any problems please ask one of the 'rules officials'. (PGA Interns who should have a good knowlegde on the rules of golf)

This is a system that has worked for many years. If there is an incident the parent is there to observe the situation and conctact the rules official.

Tom is there to mediate any sticky situations.  He is great to watch as he handles the children with a kind of 'tough love' attitude.

It is not uncommon for Tom to sit on the 9th or 18th hole waiting for the players to finish. As the players walk off he approaches the group and says 'Boys your all disqualified'.
He busts their chops for abit and then allows them to hand in their cards and walks away smiling at his interns. Puts the fear of God into them so to speak. I guess my point is that a solid PGA Professional is extremely importnat for the success of Junior Golf.

I feel it is absolutley important for juniors to play tournament golf at this level. I ran a large junior camp this summer. However as much instruction I can give them, and as many balls I can allow them to hit, nothing can train them for golf under tournamnet conditions except golf under tournament conditions.

Take Little League. Clinic--tee ball--60 foot bases--90 foot bases.

The common factor is the kids start playing the GAME young. They aren't just 'practicing.'

From a youg age they are able to feel the pressure of umpires, competitors and fans. When it is time to move up to the next level the feeling is not uncommon.

Unfortunatley for the game of Golf, this is not common. The Country Club is not helping....

[M. Shea Sweeney]

John-

As for Middle School Golf.

Well you propose a tough question. I agree with you that parents at this age should be out of the picture....for every sport.

Coaches play a big time role at this age and stage of the game. A good coach can mean an enourmous difference to your childs experience.

Kids are so worried about how they are percieved that cheating is going to be a big problem. However it is up to the Coach to teach his kids to avoid these problems by providing a rule book, rules sheets, quizzes, etc.

Instead of playing with the other coach in the last group, drive around with the other coach and monitor the situation.

Explain to both teams before the match, if there is a rules discrepency to follow Rule 3-3 Doubt as Procedure (the 2-Ball Rule). Then there should be no questions to a rule at the end of the round, just play 2 balls!

'Adjusting Scores' will always be an issue. It is up to the coach to instill on to his players to avoid this. The player can simply say 'no' to the question.

[Paul Stephenson]

I'm a high school golf coach in the "friendly north."  We've started this year having coaches score for all of the groups.

Most can count.  And rule 3-3 is driven into them at the coaches meeting before play commences.  Although we call it, "when in doubt play two balls," instead of rule 3-3.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Paul-

"Most can count"

The kids or the coaches?

How many coaches do you have to score all the groups?

How many groups do you regularly have?

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