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JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2007, 11:59:22 AM »
I think anyone who has been hired at arms length to design and build a golf course is a golf course architect...no matter how poor a job they did.

So if my greatgrandfather had actually found or owned the land in Clementon and hired Crump to do the exact same thing he did, in your view he would then be considered an architect. ???

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2007, 12:05:14 PM »
John,

I asked this same question a couple of days ago in the Superior Architecture thread...

Tom Paul pointed me to the article on GC in the In My Opinion section.  It was a very good read and provided some good information on the how, what, why, and wheres of the project....

Phil_the_Author

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2007, 12:07:42 PM »
John, that Wikipedia says that he was should settle the matter!  :o

John Kavanaugh

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2007, 12:09:14 PM »
I think anyone who has been hired at arms length to design and build a golf course is a golf course architect...no matter how poor a job they did.

So if my greatgrandfather had actually found or owned the land in Clementon and hired Crump to do the exact same thing he did, in your view he would then be considered an architect. ???

Yes...and think of the money your greatgrandpa would have saved on the final payment

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2007, 12:17:38 PM »
I think anyone who has been hired at arms length to design and build a golf course is a golf course architect...no matter how poor a job they did.

So if my greatgrandfather had actually found or owned the land in Clementon and hired Crump to do the exact same thing he did, in your view he would then be considered an architect. ???

Yes...and think of the money your greatgrandpa would have saved on the final payment

Alright then. Ohh, that's just wrong. ;)

Bill_Yates

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2007, 12:30:48 PM »
Answer: No, and neither was Henry Fownes.  Designing courses that today are ranked #1 in the US and #1 in the world (PV), an #4 in the US and #9 in the world (Oakmont) is not too bad for a couple of non-architects.

Perhaps the world needs more individuals who make one course their passion.  Better one utterly fabulous course than 200+ mediocre ones.
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Peter Pallotta

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2007, 07:47:19 PM »
"Nature has been centuries in preparing this ideal tract for the hand of man in the ultimate creation of a real golf course, and man, in the person of Mr. George Crump more particularly, aided by other Philadelphia enthusiasts, has carved out a links which is just as sure as anything to be one of the best—if not the very best—that this country may justly be proud of."

So said Walter Travis in 1915, and he was there. So I'd give the nod as architect to the man who "carved out" from nature a world-class golf course. But if you want to insist on Colt as the architect, then I'd say Crump was the best darn "lead associate" anyone has ever had.    

Peter

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2007, 08:12:18 PM »
I got an email the other day that sort of sums up a lot of the ODG stuff for me.....basically it says that everybody in golf at the turn of the century era was an architect but no one really thought of it that way because golf was such an allof , out of touch sport.  Being a good golfer or architect at that time was like being on the Jamaican Bobsled team in the 1990's.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2007, 10:05:53 PM »
I'm really not too sure why the word, the term, the definition etc, etc, of "architect" is getting worked over on here bigtime in the last few days.

Nevertheless it is.

In a way a part of me says it's a ridiculous subject and topic for discussion but another part of me says it isn't.

The reason I think the latter may be true---eg that discussing on here the meaning of "architect" may NOT be ridiculous is because I'm beginning to believe that the term or designation ("architect") to some, such as those men back in that day who created the likes of NGLA, Merion, Oakmont, Pine Valley, Myopia, Riviera et al very much felt the term "architect" connoted professionalism in golf and the very last thing any of those men who created the likes of those courses wanted to be connected to in golf was professionalism.

The reason is obvious. If you were suspected of having any professional connection to golf in that day your amateur status---playing status or otherwise, was definitely in jeopardy or suspect.

If any of us really comb the records back then we will likely find references in writing from people like Alan Wilson who actually made the point and distinction that Merion, for instance, did not involve the services of an "architect"---that the people who were responsible for the design and creation of the course were known and referred to as "sportsmen".

Clearly the latter word and phrase ("sportsman") connoted amateurism or at least a lack of professionalism.

On the other hand, if the term or definition of "architect" was, back then, or is today, supposed to connote requisite talent in designing and creating great golf courses, isn't it really ironic that those who did not want to be referred to as "architects", but preferred to be referred to as "sportsmen" created the likes of Myopia, Oakmont, NGLA, Merion, Pine Valley, Riviera et al----the courses that still today are considered to be some of the best golf architecure in American history.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 10:12:09 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2007, 01:06:29 AM »
...architect ...smarchitect....the proofs in the pudding.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 01:09:34 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2007, 01:49:55 AM »
#2 says designs and guides a plan...Did Crump really do both or is no more an interior designer than any man who picks out a new davenport and places it in his studio?

I love the fact that you just said "davenport."

My grandma used to say that.  

So now we're even.  You liked "to boot".  I like "davenport."

My grandmother called it a "divan."

Carry on.
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

PJKoenig

Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2007, 04:59:42 AM »
Why, oh why, do you guys keep responding to this idiot???

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was George Crump an Architect?
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2007, 08:22:14 AM »
Why, oh why, do you guys keep responding to this idiot???

PJ.....for the same reason you just did....its some kind of force thing.

BTW....my Irish grandmother also called it a davenport, usually prefaced with "take your feet off the...."
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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