Fazio's Lido? Shadow Creek fully digested.

[THuckaby2]

We live too close to San Francisco, Bob - the use of that word struck me also, I was just too wussy to say anything!

Makes for a cozy foursome, doesn't it?  Gib and Tommy, Adam and his beau.... lots of love going around Vegas that weekend.  

TH

[ian]

Thanks Gib that was really an enjoyable read. I will be there in November, and you've got me wanting to see the course.

Ian

[Dick Harris]

cdharris,

I think the exclusiveness of Cascata has loosened as has Shadow Creek's.  I think the same $500 that will get you on SC will get you on Cascata while staying at a Park Place Casino.

It was also a previous Aerial of the Day, if you want to see it for yourself from above, and see a picture featured in the GD article contained in this thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1018531398

Thanks for this great information.  This link led me to an article in Golf Digest.com that was very interesting.  Sounds like this may be the most expensive course ever built; certainly the most expensive per round played.  Even so, I would love to play it, but am not going to pay $500, much less gamble $25,000 or more, to do it.

[Phil]

Loved Gib's description of SC. I played it once about four months ago and was overwhelmed by this incredible creation in the middle of misrerable desert hell. The day I played, everyone was sent out shotgun - which is a terrible way to taste the experience. Nevertheless, it really is something. The damn place looks like it's been there a thousand years and, at the same time, like they just finished sodding last night.
Compared to the other courses I've played in Vegas, this one was a joy. I've always enjoyed the dear, departed Desert Inn GC for what it was - an old-style desert course. And the Southern Highlands course is a good track. I'm in Vegas for about ten days every quarter on business so I've played on a lot of expensive, boring Vegas golf courses. Any suggestions out there?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Well Adam, it seems the ole bay area stigma and gauntlet has been tossed out. Set the record straight so to speak and let them know where Arnold Palmers putter has not been. I wish i had been with you guys for a better group for a 4 some could not be found anywhere. John

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John, And having you and about fifty others there would have been even better. This way I could have had a second tour of the place to further my thoughts.* But just in case, I would like to sort of give my opinon on this again so that there is no possible way anyone can make it seem like I thought Shadow Creek was a GREAT golf course.....

It isn't.

*Or I may have been crazy enough that night to join the pirate show by jumping into the water during the faux battle at Treasure Island.

It is a Great golf experience (For some) but after much thought of this course and hopefully to someday play it again, (This is the first Fazio course I have ever wanted to see more then once-only to re-establish my thoughts) has a lot of the obvious design charateristics of all of his work I have seen out here in the West. Too much earth-movement on every hole for one; (Meaning the endless use of Containment) The lack of interesting hazards in the fairways that dictate strategic play and golf with endless options; the least interesting green complexes of any Top 100 rated course I have seen; repetition of greensite scenarios, etc. Was it me, or did we actually play #1 again for #9 or was it the other way around? ? ? ? (at least from the tee, it was very similar)

Holes that I did think that were GOOD: #2 from the tee; (After that a big disappointment) #4 into the green; (a great false front to the best green on the course-but thats not saying a lot) #5 from tee to green; #8 was Pretty Good, Holes #10-12 were pretty good, after that, all pretty much the same. In fact I have to really press to remember the sequencing of holes that finish the round (Up until 7 & 18 which could never be mistaken--17 for its cheezyness. It is a HORRIBLE golf hole that is viewed by many as the GREATEST hole on the course. Those of you who think this better start laying off of the computer and start reading their copies of Some Essays On Golf Architecture (Now where did that co from? ? ?)

(BTW-David, they have them at Grant Books for 16L (sterling pounds.)I just got my replacement copy)

[George Pazin]

All right, Tommy & Gib have thrown down the gauntlet by actually discussing actual holes on the course. Anyone else who has played it want to chime in with something other than generalizations or aesthetic opinions?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thank you George. At last someone that wants to hear about the actual golf course and not the experience!

[David Wigler]

Tommy,

I have my copy and have reread it.  The only one I still cannot find is Colt and Co.  If someone knows where I can get a copy, e-mail me off line.  BTW, given my choice, I’ll ready Bury Me In A Pot Bunker any day.  Just because something is old doesn’t make it better.  Mario Puzo is fifty times the storyteller that Faulkner was.  At least I can follow his flashbacks.

As for the design, it is proof of differing tastes.  Criticizing Fazio for moving earth at Shadow Creek is criticizing a Pizza maker for using cheese.  It is just silly.  He had to move earth.  This isn't 1920 and Shadow Creek does not border the Pacific Ocean.  We have already agreed that a desert landscape could not produce the course that Wynn wanted.  It was Fazio's genius to produce an artificial world.

Tommy - you need to play Whistling Straights.  Golfweek has it either just ahead or just behind Pacific Dunes.  Doak moved very little earth because he did not need to.  Dye moved tons and tons of earth because he did need to.  The finished products are very comparable.  As for containment, again either your expectation was unrealistic or it was a criticism you knew you would have before you played the course.  There is no extreme containment mounding.  In fact, streams, lakes, or trees border most of the holes.  Each hole is designed to be an experience onto itself (Much like Doak at Black Forest).  I accept that you did not like the course.  I think that is a shame because the course is really that good.  Moving earth and containment are not its flaws though.  

I should be in LA early in November.  Have the pasta and wine ready.  It is going to be a long night.  

[A_Clay_Man]

One of the holes...14? was "John Daly's favorite"
Par 4 dog right. With a greensite that included a pond on rt, a bunker between the pond and green and a tree on the left. I hit what was one of my best drives that day, was in the middle in a little tiny swale that led to a sprinkler head. Needless to say I pulled the sh%@ out of the approach and the whole eshtetics changed.
The 16th (i think) was an interesting look, seeing several powerlines was totally unexpected. Thank god the caddie used them for a reference since the par 5 dog rght with undulation and movement on the second caused for hanging lie city. Eventually we all ended up on the right side in front of the deep bunkers and no one was able to execute thier pitch shot due to the turf.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,
The pasta and the wine will be ready!

But.......

I do think there is phenominal golf courses being built today. Its just that they are being built by so few really talented architects, which I don't heven have to mention--I think you know who I am refering to.

Even trying to compare anything has ever done to Riviera, Pebble Beach, Cypress Point, Garden City, Merion, Pine Valley, NGLA, Shinnecock, etc, is not only laughable, but is the entire REAL reasoning of breaking the courses up into two classes. (Not to mention very smart when it comes to ad revenues from the new courses, for the magazine.)

Another thing, I found Bury Me In a Pot Bunker to be that of an autobiography, then a book on golf course design. So much that I read the book in less then two hours and know that I will never have to pick it up again. I tend to find much more resourceful information in the CLASSIC books by Thomas, MacKenzie, Colt; Wethered & Simpson and Hunter. those are the books that depict what golf is all about.

BTW, Colt & Company is a good book, but you won't find out anythng about golf design in it either. it too is also a biography of sorts.

[David Wigler]

OK, Pasta, Wine and your copy of Colt and Co.  I cannot find it anywhere.  Even with the internet.

[John Bernhardt]

Kingsbarn is a course generally weel recieved on this site and half the earth was moved to create the links environment.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

Tell me why the 18th hole isn't very strategic and challenging.
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