[Adam Clayman]

Dan, NO!
 The weakest design element isn't controversial, it's a pity.

Why would someone design around something as impermanent as a tree?

[Eric_Terhorst]

Dan Moore, do you have a picture of the offensive willow on #6 at Spring Valley?

[Brad Klein]

Dan, it was CBMacdonald who said that a controversial bunker is the best of all. But note, he didn't say that about trees.

[Doug Ralston]

Dan, NO!
 The weakest design element isn't controversial, it's a pity.

Why would someone design around something as impermanent as a tree?

Adam;

To avoid permanence problems, put a Redwood about 70yds out in the middle of the 18th fairway. They live hundreds of years if rapacious humans do not cut them down for convenience or out of pique. "The play here is a high PW over the tree" ...... ROFL

Trees are good Adam. You may be evil  .

Doug

[Kalen Braley]

John,

This is not so much about a tree, but a grouping of trees...

It was mentioned earlier that when a tree is in the way when you hit your drive in the fairway.  I don't see the problem with a singular tree as long as there is some reasonable avenue around it to the green.  I.E. hit a low punch, or a fade of draw.  I think this is perfectly fine and can add interest/strategy to the hole.

However this next scenario is much less desirable to me.  And that is when one places thier drive in the fairway, and a group of trees is in the way, such that you can't play under them, over them or around them.  There is a hole like this that I used to play regularly and it was a medium length par 5 where one could be 120 yards from the green, in the fairway, and left with absolutly no shot into the green.  And this wasn't just one small spot in the fairway, this was true for any ball on the right side of the fairway.  In this case I would thin the trees out so that some shot could be attempted.

To me, there are few things more frustrating than holding a wedge in your hands while standing in the fairway and have to chip out sideways to a different part of the fairway.

[Phil_the_Author]

Revenge also has it's place in bringing about the ultimate punishment for a misguided tree. Consider the case of A.W. Tillinghast who:

      In February of 1931, Tilly wrote an article in Golf Illustrated titled, “Trees on the Golf Course.” He wrote how, “More than twenty years ago, Mr. Chandler Egan won the championship of the United States at Baltusrol. I played him in the first round of that tournament and at the end of the eleventh enjoyed a lead of one hole. After poor drives to the twelfth it looked for a brief moment as though my lead might go to two for my ball rested in the fairway within a short pitch to the green, while Mr. Egan had unleashed an unholy hook into a real jungle. How he ever got a club to that ball, or what manner of club it was, matters not, but that ball came out plenty. It would have continued its mad flight for a lot more than the player had hoped had it not come into violent contact with a lone tree, which grew immediately by the side of the green for no good purpose. After sampling nearly every branch of that tree for a good place to alight, the ball finally decided on a nice spot on the green itself very close to the cup. The birdie three evened the match which it had looked like two down a moment before. In memory that tree was coupled with one of my life’s darkest moments. Some years later, I had been retained by Baltusrol to remodel the course and extend it to its present thirty-six holes. One day the late Mr. Louis Keller, then of the Green Committee, heard the sound of axes eating into a half dead tree and hurried over to investigate. Nearby he found their golf architect looking on and smiling contentedly as he stood on the old twelfth green.”

Ahhhh! Revenge can be so sweetly enjoyed on occasion!  

[Don_Mahaffey]

If in doubt..it must come out.

[Dan Moore]

Brad,

Indeed, Macdonald was no fan of trees.  But I think a tree could be controversial for the right reasons, which is why I thought it an odd choice of words.  

Here is one insipid, out of place tree we encountered on the Langford Moreau Tour, one the architect would not approve.   I believe someone stated upon seeing it for the first time, "What the **** is that tree doing there."  There was no controversy over this one; we all agreed it has to go, even Mother Nature who took half of it away in the August storms.  The cape hole characteristics are blocked out with the tree located on the ideal line.

Spring Valley 6th


On the other hand, the architect did approve of this one which unfortunately is dying.  A new tree has been planted to take its place when it finally drops.

Lawsonia 13th


Some of us debated this one.  A 250 hitter can clear the tree with ease.  Should it stay or should it go?  

Lawsonia 15th




 

[Adam Clayman]

There are wonderful uses of trees. Rustic Canyons' 14th cape tee shot, over or around the trees, makes for great mystery and strategy.
Jasper Parks 14th is quite similar.
Pete Dye seems to be one of the few masters of the well placed trees.

So positive examples do exist and I can assure the smart alec Ralston, they are not Redwoods.

[RJ_Daley]

Dan, while nobody asked me, I'll still go with, 13 OK, 15 out.
The tree on 15 blocks the gullwinged L&M bunker.  Unfortunately, with the modern ball and equipment, the bunker is generally not far enough out by about 20-30 yards, and no room to put tees back further.  

[Phil McDade]

The willow at Spring Valley's 6th (in fact, I can't think of a single willow tree I've encountered on a golf course that doesn't meet this criteria) should go. I was hoping the first day of the recent L/M tour, with its winds gusting up to 30 mph, might have helped further the good work done by an earlier storm, but to no avail.

I've always liked the "look" of the big tree on 13 at Lawsonia, because it's a solitary obstacle on a portion of the course (most of the back nine) that has virtually no internal trees. I was on the fairway left of the tree (a first!...that is, left of the tree from the golfer's perspective on the tee) during the recent outing. Interesing angle into the green.

I've never liked the tree there on 15, not just because as Dick says it blocks the bunker, but it also sort of dictates strategy for the golfer who might be tempted to fly the bunker, and create a shorter shot into the green, but is not long enough to carry the tree as well. Instead, the golfer who thinks flying the bunker might be worth the risk is dissuaded by the knowledge that he probably can't carry the tree. Langord's design strategy was all about creating rewards for taking the risky line off the tee, and the tree somewhat negates that for a decent number of golfers.

[Mike Hendren]

Dick,

Funny, I chop down 13 (ugly trees have no excuse- u-g-l-y you ain't got no alibi, you're ugly!) and keep 15.  14 could use a little trim too.

Mike

[Doug Ralston]

There are wonderful uses of trees. Rustic Canyons' 14th cape tee shot, over or around the trees, makes for great mystery and strategy.
Jasper Parks 14th is quite similar.
Pete Dye seems to be one of the few masters of the well placed trees.

So positive examples do exist and I can assure the smart alec Ralston, they are not Redwoods.

And Adam; that is truly my entire point. I never wanted courses made on 'Christmas Tree Farms' or whatever. Just think the tree is not anathema to golf course architecture. Also that in areas like the 'North Woods', tree-lined fairways are excellent definition for the limits of the player friendly parts of holes.

I recently played Evil Art's 'Red Hawk', up in those Woods, and I think it is an excellent level of golf challenge  for anyone. While the fairways are defined through those woods, I think only very limited and practical use was made of trees within those confines. Definitely worth a visit.

Adam, in another thread you hoped I would see an inspiring course, and I assume you meant all or mostly treeless. Well, during this same trip I played Eagle Eye near Lansing. It is treeless, and I don't think I have seen a more challenging or beautiful use of land than Lutzke did there. Only me 'beloved' Eagle Ridge excites me more, of courses I have played.

Sadly, certain realities, mostly financial, keep me off the courses most of you write about. But do not think I have no basis for comparison. There truly are 'hidden gems' around. And we find them!

Doug

[Tim Bert]

Mike Hendren - What says you about the tree on #4 at Iron Horse?

[Mike Hendren]

Tim,  

I would like to personally burn that tree in my fireplace.

Mike

[Phil McDade]

See! One more good reason to cut down trees on golf courses. I'd personally be willing to help take an axe to offending trees if I get a small supply of wood for the winter fires warming the hearth...

[Tim Bert]

Tim,  

I would like to personally burn that tree in my fireplace.

Mike

That would last several winters.  

Does Round-Up work on things larger than grass and bushes?  Perhaps we could meet on the premises late one evening after a quick stop at Home Depot...

[Evan Fleisher]

Dick,

Funny, I chop down 13 (ugly trees have no excuse- u-g-l-y you ain't got no alibi, you're ugly!) and keep 15.  14 could use a little trim too.

Mike

Amen! 14 needs a haircut on the left side in a BAD WAY.  BTW...my vote is to keep #13 tree, and ditch #15 tree.

[archie_struthers]

 

Death Penalty when a tree favors the better player inordinately .....is seriously killing turf.....or was planted in error

[Roger Tufts]

There are wonderful uses of trees. Rustic Canyons' 14th cape tee shot, over or around the trees, makes for great mystery and strategy.
Jasper Parks 14th is quite similar.
Pete Dye seems to be one of the few masters of the well placed trees.

For anyone that has played up here, #4 @ The RTJ Course at Cornell has great tree strategies, though I don't approve of the ones overhanging the right side of the green...

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

It was me! (re. willow trees...). The only downside of cutting down all the willows is that they make for poor fireplace wood, being so soft and all.

Re. the 13th at Lawsonia (the lone sentinel tree that's dying), there is quite a bit fairway room right of the tree (from the golfer's perspective on the tee); expanding the fairway right could be done, but would already make a fairly wide fairway quite wide on that side. There is some pretty nasty fescue bordering each side of the fairway on 13th, the fescue sort of divides the playing corridors of a section of the course that has some back-and-forthing (13 fairway parallels the 11th fairway to its right and the 15th fairway to its left). I can see an argument for expanding the fairway to the left of the that tree (again, left from the golfer's view on the tee), but again, it's a fairly wide fairway to begin with.

The tree for most players (not Swanson...) comes into play on the second shot, as the tee shot (it's a 550+ yard par 5) is angled over a series of bunkers left of the fairway, and the golfer who hugs those bunkers too closely sort on the tee shot has to tack his way to the right side of the fairway on the 2nd shot to avoid the tree. One of the more interesting holes at Lawsonia.

[Doug Ralston]

Couldn't resist offering these pix. Look especially at your 'pal' on #8. And remember the name of this course, actually a fun little Hurdzan design.

http://www.golfkentuckylinks.com/Pages/Photo%20Pages/Willows%20photo.html

Doug

[Pete_Pittock]

I think the wrong tree in Oregon got eliminated so its too late to go to the appelate court. My objection. One of my soft fades to the right side ended up as a long pull into the bunker. A skillful (lucky?) shot under the branches rolled off the right side shoulder back to makeable range. Can't happen again.

this is the one that should be deleted. Picture was take from the left front side of the green.

[Norbert P]

 Peter, that Shore Pine on Pacific Dunes #8 was there before the bunker was dug. I know it created a bit of a double hazard but only if the ball went way back - and the lower branches were pruned  for club swingage.  The bunker could have been smaller (heresy!) and kept away from the rootzone.  I thought it was one of the most dramatic trees on the course and I know it broke Ken Nice's heart when the winds took it down.  

 It's still a great green complex. One of the funnest I've ever played.

[Jerry Kluger]

I don't want to be simplistic but I cannot recollect a planted pine tree that did not deserve extinction.

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