[John Kavanaugh]

What architectural crimes must a tree be found guilty of to deserve the ax?

[Mike Sweeney]

1. Stopping grass from growing.

[John Kavanaugh]

Should every Willow die just for trespassing or does there have to be extenuating circumstances?

[Evan Fleisher]

How about overhanging a greenside bunker to the point that a backswing taken to remove yourself from the pit meets with hard wood.

...happened to me a few years ago at Cog Hill's Dubsdread course.

[Dan Herrmann]

Exposed roots.

Once Mr. Tree dares to expose his roots, he must be dispatched to the chipper.

[John Kavanaugh]

1. Stopping grass from growing.

From growing completely or just from growing well?  I could see every tree being killed under your rule.  When did air space become discounted to the point that it should be free of all obstructions?

[Phil McDade]

Obstructing the second shot of a ball hit from the tee that lands in the fairway.

[Mike Sweeney]

1. Stopping grass from growing.

From growing completely or just from growing well?  I could see every tree being killed under your rule.  When did air space become discounted to the point that it should be free of all obstructions?

All of these types of questions are situational, which is why you need a good Super and Architect to make the right decisions. When you set up strict rules, everything becomes the same and thus boring.

[Mike Sweeney]

Obstructing the second shot of a ball hit from the tee that lands in the fairway.

John,

To follow up on my last post, while I agree with this rule in concept, there is a tree on the 18th at Mountain Lake on the left that can be in the way when there is a left pin.



Now the fairway is huge. So if we set up rules, then we either narrow the fairway or chop the tree. I would suggest neither.

[John Kavanaugh]

Supers and architects are simply transitory paid visitors to a club.  I'm not convinced they should have the final say on a tree that may have been a vital part of the local environment for 40 years.  My concern is that trees can be destroyed for such simple issues as sight lines or other obtuse single issues.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Obstructing the second shot of a ball hit from the tee that lands in the fairway.

John,

To follow up on my last post, while I agree with this rule in concept, there is a tree on the 18th at Mountain Lake on the left that can be in the way when there is a left pin.



Now the fairway is huge. So if we set up rules, then we either narrow the fairway or chop the tree. I would suggest neither.

It is easy to say that the above hole would be better with no trees at all.  Who is that good looking fellow...

[RJ_Daley]

Am I seeing that correctly?  Is the tree just in front of a nice Raynor bunker?  And the one on the right somewhat overhanging into that second bunker up that side?  

I'd suggest, leave the FW wide, chop both trees, leave the gun, take the cannoli...  

[Dan Moore]

When the tree interferes with the intended strategy of the hole.  

Phil,  I have to disagree somewhat.  In some cases a tree may intentionally serve a strategic purpose by blocking out a shot from the fairway to certain pin locations requiring a play away from the tree to get the right angle.  An example I would  buy into is a tree that prevents a 2nd shot at the green on a par 5 from certain parts of the fairway.  To get the reward of a clean angle for the second shot your first must be played to the right part of the fairway to avoid the tree.   The problem is that many trees today block angles of play when it was never the inetended strategy of the hole; in those cases I agree with you.    

[SL_Solow]

As is often the case, the question seeks a simple answer to a more complex problem.  Those who suggest the answer is invariably "remove the tree" are as inflexible and doctrinaire as the tree huggers who would save every tree.  Questions to consider;
1.  Where is the tree located?  Does it limit strategic choices or add to them?
2.  Is the tree healthy?  Is it a specimen tree?  Is it adversely impacting on turf growth in areas where the turf is important e.g. greens, fairways?
3. Does it add or detract from the aesthetic of the hole/course?  Block vista vs. add perspective/backdrop?
4. Does it present maintenance problems e.g. "dirty trees near greens or does it help maintenace issues e.g. trees that do well in wet areas?

Just as an example in response to a prior "rule", some trees are used to require players to either favor one side of a fairway or alternatively to be able to work the ball if they miss.  Thus balls on the wrong side of a fairway may be blocked in whole or in part by trees (for those of you have played my home course Briarwood, #17 comes to mind).  While I might not favor this strategy on every hole, it is legitimate and tests a player's ability to hit shots while offering alternative ways to play a hole.

As in most issues pertaining to GCA there is no hard and fast rule.  Careful analysis with regard to each situation is required.

However I must say that I can't remember an instance where trees planted directly between a bunker and a green in close proximity to the bunker have made any sense.  Either the trees or the bunker should go.

[Bill_McBride]

However I must say that I can't remember an instance where trees planted directly between a bunker and a green in close proximity to the bunker have made any sense.  Either the trees or the bunker should go.

On the old Pensacola CC course, we had a bunker on the left side of the fifth fairway and a green that was tucked in behind a nice stand of pines also on the left.  To any pin but a way right side pin, you had to hit a draw out of the bunker or play right hoping to get up and down.   I'd say cut down the pines but did see my son hit a nifty draw to 10' of a left pin once.  Best shot I have ever seen him play!

It was a short par 4, he hit a 9 iron for that shot, so I'd say those trees could stay in that situation.

[John Kavanaugh]

I like trees beyond bunkers between the bunker and the green so the long hitter that flys the bunker does not get a free pass.

[Dan Moore]

John,

Doesn't that penalize the short hitter twice.  I hate being in a bunker and not having a shot because a tree is in the way.

I read something recently from the 1920's which advocated placing trees in the unirrigated rough areas of the course to prevent taking advantage of the baked out sparsely grassed rough for extra distance.  I think this type of thinking and single row irrigation is responsible for a lot iof the tree overgrowth we see today in the Midwest.  

[Brad Klein]

All "controversial trees" ought to be summarily axed. I've yet to find one of these that wasn't totally insipid and out of place.

[Phil Benedict]

When it's so close to a water hazard that hitting into the hazard is effectively a two stroke penalty.

[Dan Moore]

Brad,

What defines a "controversial tree"?  

[Phil McDade]

Dan:

I was deliberately being a bit provocative. I see strategic merit in the type of tree you describe, or the one that forces a decision on the tee shot like 18 at Pebble Beach (my father-in-law's 9-hole home course in Minnesota has a similar tree smack dab in the middle of the fairway of a longish par 5, but the fairway provides enough alternate routes around it.)

The comment stems from my experience playing one of Madison's more well-regarded private (and over-treed) courses, and -- finding myself on the left third of the fairway (not left side, but toward the middle of the left third of the fairway, with about 10-12 feet of fairway to my left) -- finding an overhanging branch basically negating a full-out second shot to the green. I sort of had to punch out -- from the fairway! -- to the green.

Of course, that was before a tornado blew through town a few years ago and greatly improved the course.

[Dan Moore]

Phil,

With respect to the 17th at Ozaukee I agree with you.  I don't think the architect intended balls in the middle left of the fairway to blocked from pins on the far left.  

[Mike Hendren]

All "controversial trees" ought to be summarily axed. I've yet to find one of these that wasn't totally insipid and out of place.

Brad, I would hate to see your quote used to justify taking down the fabulous mesquite tree in the middle of the 16th fairway at Desert Forest!


Mike

[Brad Klein]

That's not controversial. Everybody at the club loves that one. I think it's the best 150-yard marker in the state.

[Dan Moore]

I know it applied to bunkers but who was it that said the controversial hazards were often the best hazards?  Would  the analysis also apply to "controversial trees"?  

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