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Joe Bausch

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changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« on: September 20, 2007, 05:43:17 PM »
I apologize if this topic has been covered already, but I still haven't figured out how to effectively use the 'search' function at GCA.

Inniscrone modified the par 3 fifth hole early this year.  All of the sand traps have been removed.  Here are three photos I snapped in early April:








@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2007, 09:28:12 PM »
Joe:

Oh, whatever--it's probably a better hole for some with the changes.

The hole just had a pretty interesting gestation for a lot of reasons--it was controversial, for sure, with some, but it was pretty unique and in my opinion, it just was what it was.

This is just another example of what I guess i'm liking less and less to see---eg the easy willingness to change original golf architecture.

Inniscrone may some day be a fascinating example of an American golf architect of significance for this reason---it was his first American golf course.

Mike_Cirba

Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2007, 09:55:00 PM »
Joe:

Oh, whatever--it's probably a better hole for some with the changes.

The hole just had a pretty interesting gestation for a lot of reasons--it was controversial, for sure, with some, but it was pretty unique and in my opinion, it just was what it was.

This is just another example of what I guess i'm liking less and less to see---eg the easy willingness to change original golf architecture.

Inniscrone may some day be a fascinating example of an American golf architect of significance for this reason---it was his first American golf course.

Tom,

That was really well stated.

What the he*l does removing the bunkering improve?

If the intent is to turn Inniscrone into just another vapid, vacuous, and vacant Country Club for a Day architecture, just blow the f*cker up right now and build a housing tract.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2007, 09:59:36 PM »
It's a shame.  A real shame.

Someday, perhaps in 2030, some green committee or owner will see original pictures and think, "restoration"!

Mike Sweeney

Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2007, 10:01:07 PM »
Mike, Tom,

It's a business and the consumers of Philly spoke!

___________________________________________

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/stories/2004/07/05/story2.html

AVONDALE -- When four local businessmen took over the management of Inniscrone Golf Club about two months ago, the southern Chester County golf course had virtually no members, a bank foreclosure in its past and a reputation for being difficult to play.

Today, Inniscrone has 115 members and plans for a "high-end" clubhouse with a restaurant and facilities capable of hosting weddings and other events for up to 300 guests.

_______________________________


Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2007, 10:02:08 PM »
Inniscrone #5 falls on the wrong side of quirk for me, but I'd be curious to hear the circumstances surrounding the decision.

Architecture aside, my issue with Inniscrone is how it's being maintained--slow as molasses with pasture rough until one reaches the greens, which are firm and lightning-fast (or at least they were when I saw it this summer). The green surrounds and chipping areas were some of the slowest soggiest parts of the entire course. For all of the good holes out there, and there are a bunch, under those conditions it played terribly.

JMO.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2007, 10:17:04 PM »
Mike

That article is 3 years old. There is newer ownership at Inniscrone- Forewinds Hospitality. They are the same company that purchased Davis Sezna's Hartefeld and Mountain Branch.

I need a return visit to Inniscrone but it's trip from my end of the 'burbs.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2007, 10:21:26 PM »
Looks like change for the sake of saying "we've made improvements!!" I would have left the bunkering as it was.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2007, 10:26:30 PM »
was Tillie consulting architect??? :-[

Is this the great depression??? :P :-\

If the intent was to make the hole easier, I doubt it has worked.  A chip from that spinach is going to be equally difficult, if not more so, than a bunker shot.  The difficulty rests in the shallow green, which I am sure is as elusive a target as ever.

Methinks removing the bunker(s) has helped the maintenance budget, however.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 03:27:38 AM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike_Cirba

Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2007, 12:12:41 AM »
Mike,

Something was definitely wrong with the business model for I'crone to have 0 members in 2004.

At one point the course was in Golfweek's Top 100 Modern.

Location always has sucked, but c'mon...

My point is this;

If it's simply a matter of location, blow it up and build houses.

Neutering a wild thoroughbred stud is a sin....better to put a quick, finalizing bullet in its head than leave it to some sterile mediocre pasture to die a slow death.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 12:28:31 AM by MikeCirba »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2007, 03:50:18 AM »
If locations of golf courses where a factor then why the hell would anyone be making a trip to the upper regions of Nebraska? It's for sure not about Cornhusker football!

This is just a damn shame. So much that it makes me sick to my stomach. Those bunkers on that hole were absolute works of art, and the worst thing about it is that the hole isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. It was a short downhill hole that made your fanny pucker. Make that it was an extremely short downhill hole that made your fanny pucker! The complaint I've heard about the hole--that you can't hold a sand wedge on this down hill hole are very overblown. The fact is you could. It just made you tink harder about it! Another ridiculous complaint (Mark Fine) was that it was a horrible portion of the routing to have to walk downhill (all 98 yards of it) to the green and then walk back-up to virtually the same teeing ground for #6.

Once again, I think this is pure nit-picking. It's a hole that could have probably had a tweak or two to make it an even better hole, but that wasn't going to happen with the original owner who required 150 yard spaces from green to next tee--but allowed it on this hole. (He read this specification in the Urban Land Institute/Rees Jones book)

Like Mike Cirba, I would love to use a few more expletives. Inniscrone is that good. That worthy of praise. Sure it needed a few alteration here and there, but it was stuff that was simple to rework. Hard to do that when your trying to fly with turkeys.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2007, 05:34:10 AM »
I'm very happy to read others like 'Scrone too.  It happens to be my one of my favorite courses in the area and I think it is tremendously underappreciated.  I started playing there regularly last fall b/c the rates were so cheap.  Yeah, it is about a 50 minute drive for me, but it is worth it (plus I get to satiate my desire for authentic Mexican food at El Sombrero on 41S as you head into Avondale).

I could go on and on about some of the wonderful holes, my faves being the short par 4 #3, playing the difficult par4 4th from the tips out of the chute, the par 4 9th that requires a perfectly placed drive in order to be able to see the green, the bunkerless downhill par 4 10th, the wonderfully scenic par 3 #11, a gem of a par 4 #13 (just a great hole, IMO), the reachable in two par 5 #15 if played properly, and the really quirky but just mesmerizing par 4 16th (a hole that I can say which I've never seen anything else quite like it).

I took 100+ photos of the course last April and the full set is available here:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Inniscrone/index.html

You can see in one of the photos that many trees have been removed lining the 9th tee box.  They seem to have really had trouble growing grass on the tees on that hole.  I'm anxious to start playing there again this fall, as I'm certain they'll have really cheap fares again soon.  Let me know if anybody else would like to join me for golf and the Mexican food beforehand.    ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2007, 08:35:26 AM »
Inniscrone Update:

The course is once again on the market. Forwinds sold Mountain Branch and Hartefeld a couple of months ago. If anyone knows of any prospective buyers please send me an email.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2007, 08:57:02 AM »
Inniscrone Update:

The course is once again on the market. Forwinds sold Mountain Branch and Hartefeld a couple of months ago. If anyone knows of any prospective buyers please send me an email.


Hmmm, I read the above with mixed feelings.  I just hope that some day Inniscrone will have an owner to keep the course alive and well.  I'm going to start playing the lottery and when I win, I'll buy Inniscrone and invite all my friends to my own course!   ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2007, 08:57:58 AM »
Does anybody have a pic of the way the hole used to look?

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2007, 09:12:05 AM »
Tom Paul,
Is this the hole where you and Gil were standing on the tee and you asked him why it was blind, and he said --  
"Not for me."  :)
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2007, 09:21:30 AM »
Does anybody have a pic of the way the hole used to look?

Ciao


Sean, I'll ask around for a previous photo.  But for now my brain will have to do, but it is known to be a faulty.  In the last of the photos above, which is from just short and right of the green, you can see all the new grass that was planted.  This hole had multiple traps in front of the green, but they did not extend all the way to the right edge.  You could get lucky and bounce a ball short of the green right and with a couple of gentle hops maybe, just maybe, stay on the back of the green.  Shots short from the left edge of the green to the middle or middle right were very likely to find sand.  One of these bunkers (I think there might have been three of them) was reasonable large and the center of was near the deepest part of the new grass in the photo.  The other(s) were smaller pot-like bunkers farther from the view in the pic.

As you can maybe see from the photo, there is a 'bump' near the front left of the green that would catapult those shots over the green.  The place to play was to the right, but the left pin position could be accessed with a very good shot.  I don't have a photo of over the green, which used to have one large bunker.  That is also gone now.  Once this year I went over the green and really wished that bunker was still there.  Instead I was in 4" thick Kentucky bluegrass (I think) that was so difficult to hit out of.  If they made the changes to #5 solely for the purpose of making the hole easier, I don't think they accomplished their goal.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2007, 09:30:42 AM »
Hah, Google Earth to the rescue!  And my brain is not so faulty.   ;)

Here is how the hole looked before the changes:

« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 09:35:18 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2007, 09:38:14 AM »

Agman

Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2007, 12:35:34 PM »

Neutering a wild thoroughbred stud is a sin....better to put a quick, finalizing bullet in its head than leave it to some sterile mediocre pasture to die a slow death.

I'm afraid Exterminator, Kelso, Forego, Phar Lap, John Henry, Creme Fraiche, and Funny Cide -- not to mention Mr. Ed and the two horses who rode under The Lone Ranger as "Silver" on TV would all respectfully have to disagree...

js

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2007, 08:13:00 PM »
Here's the second part of my opinion on Inniscrone.  Regarding the fifth hole, what's the problem?  It's 98 yards downhill.  Yes, there is a little bit of backtracking involved--a whole 98 yards.  Big deal.  If you're walking, you can leave your bag up top, carry a putter and a wedge down, and that's that.  It's not that difficult a shot, to hit a spinning 3/4 sand wedge.  

I fail to see what is so wrong with a lot of this course that attracts so many negative opinions.  Yes, it's far.  That, I will concede, especially from the northern suburbs, for example from my area (near North Wales).  I'm not sure if it has the totality, the star power, to attract people to drive 45 minutes to more than once or twice a year.  (For example, IMO, Beechtree or Bethpage Red is one in which it's worth the drive 2-3 times a year).  
1 is a good starting hole-there's plenty of room, even if you miss the drive, to recover.  It's not overly long or difficult, IMO.  As far as the other holes, they all seemed to be relatively fair and give the player ample room to play.  In contrast to French Creek, where I thought wetlands were a little too close to many of the lines of play (as is the case with Lederach), I felt, here, the player actually has more room to play and miss.  Further, I didn't play all that great or all that bad.  Maybe it was because it was November, and the greens were softer and more receptive.  
2 is a good hole, 3 is very good, 4 is ok, difficult drive and second.  But, I found it possible to leave it short (by accident) and pitch on within a reasonable putting distance.  5 was fine that way it is.  6,7 are fine.  8's not bad--good redan-like green, I also recall comments on the tee shot angle being off.  9 tough.  10 is what it is.  11 is very, very good.  12 is difficult, but not unreasonably so.  13 is a little quirky, but again, not overly so.  14 is good--looks a lot longer than it is.  15 is very good, 16 is a little quirky, I can see why it attracts some negative opinions, but it can't be that bad--I parred it.  The "quarry" is fine--it struck me as very easy to find a lost ball if short.  17 is tough, and 18 is maybe a little short and/or anticlimactic for a very memorable finisher, but it's fine.  
Reading an older article on here, I saw it was suggested that 17 play as a short par 5.  Not a bad idea, especially for public play.  I can see how the meadow grass is tough sometimes--balls seem to sink and disappear from sight.  
Now, I'm not saying I'm going to start driving 45 mins. each Saturday next spring, but I don't see why I wouldn't give it a go once a year.  I can, however, see, if I belonged to one of the more famous local Flynn-designed clubs, why I would pass it up.  We really do have some great golf courses down here.  From a business standpoint, would it be possible to market it to slightly better-than-average public players from the Baltimore, Philadelphia, and maybe Lancaster areas who either a) don't belong to a club or b) need another place to play on a given day?  
Also, how much to charge is a question.  Beechtree and Bulle Rock are basically right on 95.  This is a little ways off and out of the way, even though it's Route 1, most people heading down south would take 95, correct?
I have to give it a lot of thought as to what a catering business addition or restaurant would do to it.  Probably add another loss-leader.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Mike_Cirba

Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2007, 08:24:15 PM »

I'm afraid Exterminator, Kelso, Forego, Phar Lap, John Henry, Creme Fraiche, and Funny Cide -- not to mention Mr. Ed and the two horses who rode under The Lone Ranger as "Silver" on TV would all respectfully have to disagree...

js
Quote

Agman,

Too funny, ;D but I'm pretty sure that when all is said and done, I'crone won't even get the satisfaction of still existing in semi-aroused Thoroughbred state to get the pleasure of being a model worthy of reproduction.

 

TEPaul

Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2007, 08:24:41 PM »
"Mike, Tom,
It's a business and the consumers of Philly spoke!"

MikeS:

Oh they have, have they? Well, in that case the consumers of Philly should be told to either shut up or eat dirt.  ;)


"Tom Paul,
Is this the hole where you and Gil were standing on the tee and you asked him why it was blind, and he said --  
"Not for me."    ;D"

That's the very same one. Gil should be reminded a whole lot more often that being about 6'6" has its architectural drawbacks sometimes. The gentle giant should be made to practice on-site architecture on his knees a whole lot more often.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 08:30:19 PM by TEPaul »

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2007, 08:48:31 PM »
Joe - From Florida, and playing a the Moorings, we have a great hole, #5 @ 65 yards (although the card says gold @ 89 yards, blue @ 89 yards, and the red @ 78 yards) I would say it is the greatest hole at 60 yards, by my radar, and feel !

Come on down !

Bring Bill Kittleman !

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:changes at Inniscrone #5 (drop par 3)
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2007, 09:20:43 PM »
Doug,
Once again, great minds think alike....


BTW, Mayday Malone is still a knucklehead....

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