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John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is Sub Air a waste of money
« on: September 17, 2007, 10:04:57 AM »
East lake has a Sub Air system and their super claims their green troubles came from excessive heat during the last 6 weeks. Another top 100 course has a Sub Air system and they are having some problems as well and their super is clamoring for permanent fans to be built around the greens.

So what is this Sub Air thing accomplishing, if anything?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 11:29:54 AM by John_Cullum »
"We finally beat Medicare. "

wsmorrison

Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2007, 10:20:53 AM »
Good question, John.  What is an average price per green for the system and what exactly is it intended to do?  Looking forward to some answers.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2007, 10:29:53 AM »
I think subair actually does work with USGA greens.....IF and a big IF..they are functioning properly.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2007, 10:58:40 AM »
Mike,
Do you think that it is possible that the problems at East Lake, which seemed to be only at the edges of greens, could be soil-related?  If the problems were ONLY heat-related, wouldn't the bare spots have been more random?  When greens are rebuilt, like EL's were a number of years ago, do they ever simply not go far enough out from the center with the proper mix/quality?

Wondering out loud; thanks.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

wsmorrison

Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2007, 11:06:27 AM »
I thought the weakness of the EL greens along the periphery were due to the turning of the mowers on grass that was stressed too far and where sand might be splashed with the grains overheated and cooking the surrounds.  Are these reasonable conclusions?

There appeared to be a number of problems at internal locations, but most seemed to be on the periphery.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2007, 11:28:19 AM »
Good question, John.  What is an average price per green for the system and what exactly is it intended to do?  Looking forward to some answers.

I found a 1998 article in a trade magazine about Sub air. It quoted the scientist at Clemson University where it was supposedly invented as saying it wwould have been $70,000 to build a 12000 sqare ft test green, but most of the stuff was donated so it only cost 30k. that actually seems kind of low to me
"We finally beat Medicare. "

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2007, 11:35:38 AM »
.... and what exactly is it intended to do?  Looking forward to some answers.

According to the Sub Air website, it can be used to either vacuum water out, or push cold air in by using an adjustable valve system.

So it would seem that there is a catastrophic failure of the system at these two locations.

I find it odd that other NEARBY Atlanta courses without this temperature regulating system have done fairly well in the extreme temps, but East lake, with air conditioned greens, has failed
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2007, 11:43:53 AM »
Sub Air was used on a daily basis at East Lake. They vacuumed out cool air in the morning and "pushed" in cool air in the afternoons. They did have a problem with the sub air on #11; therefore a portable sub air unit was brought in.
  The greens mix on EL’s greens goes all the way to the collar edge. There is a plastic liner for encroachment located there also and this also acts as a tool to always be able to find the original greens edge.  The possibilities of over fertilization and over watering that COULD have caused some of the clean ups to thin out. (along with wear and tear from mowers, rollers, shade and foot traffic) Making those blades fat and think can make it VERY tough for survival in the summer. If could have been a hundred different things. EL's climate is different than that of say, Atlanta Athleitc Club, TPC..it stays much hotter in the city than on the outskirts.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 04:50:31 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

tlavin

Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2007, 11:44:01 AM »
I have the cool version of Sub Air in my Mercedes and it has saved my bottom on many a hot summer's day.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 03:15:20 PM »
Terry:  CLASSIC

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2007, 03:59:40 PM »
I have the cool version of Sub Air in my Mercedes and it has saved my bottom on many a hot summer's day.

I'm glad you're not using it to suck the water out
"We finally beat Medicare. "

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2007, 06:05:59 PM »
I have the cool version of Sub Air in my Mercedes and it has saved my bottom on many a hot summer's day.

Me too, my Sub Air system is allows the seat to be heated to keep my back loose and the air conditioning to blow at the same time to keep the other side of my body cool.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

igrowgrass

Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2007, 06:36:33 PM »
I thought the weakness of the EL greens along the periphery were due to the turning of the mowers on grass that was stressed too far and where sand might be splashed with the grains overheated and cooking the surrounds.  Are these reasonable conclusions?

There appeared to be a number of problems at internal locations, but most seemed to be on the periphery.

You usually don't turn greens mowers on the greens.  I've never seen sand from a bunker cause acute high temperature kill.  These areas dry out faster, but I've never seen it cause death from absorbing too much heat.  

wsmorrison

Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2007, 06:43:18 PM »
Thanks, Sean.  I should look more carefully when our greens are being mowed so that I can watch as they make the turns.  I've seen areas with sand splash that have baked and the turf lost; much of it in the collars.  It seems in SE Pennsylvania where A1/A4 is used in the collars, the longer cuts in the collar can't tolerate abrasion from the sand and foot traffic and higher heat resulting from the sand splash.

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2007, 07:22:26 AM »
"So it would seem that there is a catastrophic failure of the system at these two locations."

The turf loss could have been related to a hundred different scenarios. To blame an air movement system and call it catastrophic if laughable. Maybe you should look into who designed the greens, who built the greens, who tested all the materials that were used to build the greens, who specified the varieties of grasses, why do we need this system for green survival in the first place, and so on.







Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2007, 08:36:06 AM »
Even though you turn the mowers off the greens generally, it may be that a bunker prevents turning there, or it prevents it somewhere else so there is more traffic because you have to turn there for more passes.  

Also, green perimeters stress more because they get clean up passes every day, meaning machines run over the turf twice as much as the green middle.  Add in stress if in a cart path walk up area, slight rises among green contouring, etc. and its typical for the edges to have more trouble than the middle.

As to Sub Air, I think its worthwhile, but its only a 5% improvement over nature. If you plant bent in the south on a wooded site, you may have caused more microclimate issues than you can overcome, even with sub air. I have seen greens in deep woods where the sub air may help, but not enough to overcome the shade and dead air.

I think its interesting to note that an urban course could have temps higher than other courses, even nearby. I tried to make that point to John Kavanaugh earlier this summer on his green quality thread, albiet I was talking about his course being in a bit of a hole, which can also cause differences.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2007, 02:36:36 PM »
"So it would seem that there is a catastrophic failure of the system at these two locations."

The turf loss could have been related to a hundred different scenarios. To blame an air movement system and call it catastrophic if laughable. Maybe you should look into who designed the greens, who built the greens, who tested all the materials that were used to build the greens, who specified the varieties of grasses, why do we need this system for green survival in the first place, and so on.



The superintendent for East Lake blamed the turf loss on the high heat.

Sub Air is designed to do two things from what I can decipher. Remove moisture and reduce soil temperature. At East Lake, it appears it did neither
"We finally beat Medicare. "

S. Huffstutler

Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2007, 03:07:11 PM »
The real problem is trying to grow Bentgrass where it shouldn't be grown.

steve

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2007, 04:15:19 PM »
The real problem is trying to grow Bentgrass where it shouldn't be grown.

steve

Steve,
Thank you.....

People have no idea what the SE supts put up with growing bentgrass in the SE in August and Sept......like groweing banana trees in maine in the winter.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2007, 05:41:14 PM »
The real problem is trying to grow Bentgrass where it shouldn't be grown.

steve

Steve,
Thank you.....

People have no idea what the SE supts put up with growing bentgrass in the SE in August and Sept......like groweing banana trees in maine in the winter.....

Well.....maybe more like growing citrus trees in Augusta ;)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

igrowgrass

Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2007, 07:29:32 PM »
Quote

The superintendent for East Lake blamed the turf loss on the high heat.

Sub Air is designed to do two things from what I can decipher. Remove moisture and reduce soil temperature. At East Lake, it appears it did neither
Quote

Removing moisture sub-air is very effective.  The other I'm not so much of a believer.  When I was in school at Michigan State, there was a study going on to try and heat the football field(the field is portable) in an effort to trick the roots and plants into a false environment and get them to continue to grow later in the season.  Near the source of heat, there was little temperature change of the soil profile, the farther you got away from the source near no effect was seen or recorded.  
Its much similiar to placing a fan in your living room.  Near the fan you can feel the cooled air much more than you can on the opposite side of the room.    

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2007, 07:36:58 PM »
Sean,

According to the studies I have read the primary purpose of fans is also to remove moisture in an effort to prevent desease.  Wouldn't this make the use of fans and sub-air on the same green duplicitous?  Not to mention the increased audible polution.

igrowgrass

Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2007, 08:09:51 PM »
John,
I don't know about removing moisture to prevent disease.  An increase in air movement over the surface prevents fungi from sporulating to a certain extent.  I have not read the research reports you are talking about.

I've read alot of your post lately, find most of them quite interesting.  I've got one question for you.
What do you expect the green speeds(ball roll distance) to be of the courses you play?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 08:10:26 PM by Sean Reehoorn »

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2007, 08:49:28 PM »
Good question, John.  What is an average price per green for the system and what exactly is it intended to do?  Looking forward to some answers.

I found a 1998 article in a trade magazine about Sub air. It quoted the scientist at Clemson University where it was supposedly invented as saying it would have been $70,000 to build a 12,000 square ft test green, but most of the stuff was donated so it only cost 30k. that actually seems kind of low to me


Sub Air was not invented at Clemson.  Was invented by a former Augusta National super I believe

I was at Clemson's Walker Golf Course in 1998......this is when the test green was built for the University......If memory serves me the green was around 12,000 sq ft and material was donated.....mainly greens mix.
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is Sub Air a waste of money
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2007, 08:55:22 PM »
Sean,

I only expect the green speeds and surfaces where I play to be in the 80th percentile of the courses within a 5 mile radius of the town where they are located.  

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