Spanish Bay... yea or nay?

[Dave_Miller]

Adam, Huckster, Doug, et al:

I have played Spanish Bay a half dozen times the most recent in 1999 the first in 1990.

Doug, it has changed over the years and is no longer the links course it was in '91.  The ESA are in my opinion foolish and there are more of them than there were in '91.

I played it once when there were signs posted on the ESA's stating not to retrieve or hit balls but a local rule allowed a free drop.  This later changed.

However, all in all I enjoy the course, the views, the vistas, and some of the challenge.  

Other than the fact it has turned into a pure resort course there is nothing really wrong with it.

Fairways and Greens,

Dave

[K2Jones]

The course was much better in the early 90s than it is now.  The fescue was better than the bent grass and the fairways were more firm.  It needs to revert to it's original conditions and play more like Bandon Dunes.  The routing is nothing special eventhough it's on a great piece of land.  Finishing in the fog w/ bagpipes playing is a memorable experience though.

[Pete Lavallee]

I played there for the first time last month and also thought that the lush fairway conditions put a damper on the "links experience". Does anybody know why the fescue failed at SB? Is it because carts and fescue are not compatible? This could explain why the fescue is doing so well at Bandon. Although the course is easy to walk I doubt you'll get many resort guests "hoofing it" here.

I thought the holes on top of the hotel were a nice change of pace, mixing seaside and forest holes like Pebble, Cypress, MPCC and Spyglass do. It was worth the climb to play #12, with its'  excilerating second shot over the barranca. I also loved the risk reward aspect of #10, hard to dislike any hole with bunkers in the middle of the fairway. Some may find the "top hat" on #11 a bit severe, but it does get you thinking and may even make you play something other than your everyday arial approach. Try getting up and down when the pin is front right and you are front left!

My biggest regret was that when we finished our round, at 5pm, the bar was closed and I couldn't claim my free drink from my the gentleman I was paired with, who started out eagle, eagle on #'s 1 and 2!

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

When someone makes a mistake it doesn't mean that they are a pig.  Mistakes occur for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with characterizing an individual as a pig.

Perhaps it was a mistake in judgement, we all make them.
Perhaps it was a mistake in the data supplied.
Perhaps it was a mistake in the advice he received.
Perhaps it was a mistake in a combination of the above.

But, it seems clear, a mistake was made designing the golf course on a potentially wonderful site.

You seem to like the course and that's all that counts when you play it.  But, to me, it represents an opportunity lost.

[SGD]

A couple of Spanish Bay observations:

1.  The Pebble Beach Company, specifically Ted Horton, decided several years ago to abandon the fescue grasses, because they believed their clientele expected to see lush green grass when paying $200 for a green fee.  The designers, most notably Tom Watson and Sandy Tatum, have been vocal in their dissent to the Company and have been basically ignored.  I'd be interested to see if they would entertain going back to the original concept now that Mike Keiser has demonstrated it works agronomically and financially up at Bandon Dunes.

2.  The "environmentally sensitive areas" are, indeed, a joke.  They were implemented AFTER the course opened because environmental opposition continued even after permitting and construction of the course, and the Pebble Beach Company wanted to placate them in hopes of getting approval for the Forest Course (to be designed by Tom Fazio) and adjacent homesites.  Watson refuses to play or visit the course because he correctly states that you cannot play golf by the rules at Spanish Bay because of the ESAs, and therefore it isn't golf.

3.  18 was never a good hole, because the option on the left side for the second shot is skinnier than Ally McBeal, and you'd have to be insane or Mike Reid (aka "Radar") in his prime to attempt it, so instead you either go for the green or layup down the right side.  The tophat green at 11 worked with fescue when you could bump it in (as designed), but doesn't now given current course conditions/concept.

4.  Spanish Bay has some exceptional holes, specifically 2, 3, 4, 6, 13 (the condos behind screwed up the view), 14 (best hole on the course), 16, and 17 (original green was out on a point closer to the ocean, but couldn't be built there because of environmental opposition).

5.  The bagpiper in the fog, a glass of Macallan, and dinner at Roy's, helps take the edge off the objective course critique.

Overall, I think Spanish Bay could be an exceptional (back in the Top 100) golf course within the parameters of the current routing if the Pebble Beach Company respected it, which they don't, and brought the original designers, or Doak or somebody, to tweak it and bring back the fescue.

As is, the Monterey Peninsula not only has two of the greatest courses in the world - Pebble and Cypress (with Spyglass coming in a strong third), but also the dubious distinction of being home to two of the game's biggest wasted opportunities - Spanish Bay by the sea and The Preserve in the Carmel hills.

[A_Clay_Man]

The enviro "them" that some have referenced is the California Coastal Commision. An entity not to be triffled with.

Pat- I had you in mind when I posted this thread and was wondering how many times you've golfed at SB? Also, I am hoping you will give a more detailed analysis of what was wasted? What is wrong w/ the golf? And most importantly why is so neccesary to see the putting surface on ones approach, especially a one shoter?

Also, SB is the only company course, that day in day out, you can ride the fairways. This implies nothing mushy or overwatered.

I guess the majority of my rounds where late in the day and soft conditions were not prevalent. And shockingly, it is quickly approaching one year since I played there last.

[The_Big_A]

My father had a good way to describe it when we played it two years ago - it was like Chinese Ping Pong.  Frankly, it is hard to fully respect any course that simultaneously brags about its beauty and respect for the game of golf while you are required to take a cart which is so programmed it reminded me of Star Wars.  With its beauty and potential for almost all of the holes, the place is not a golf course, but a resort.  Great potential, but more concerned about making money.

[Paul Richards]

Big A:

Amen to your post.

Your father is a very smart man.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

Four times.

This is what's wrong with a blind tee shot where one can just see the top of the pin, when water lies left, right and short of the green.

You don't know where your margins of error lie.  You have no idea if the pin is in the far left, far right, front, back or middle of the green, so the only shot to be played is directly at the pin, where a missed guess, or a slightly miss hit shot will have disastrous results.

You like to play SB and that's good for you.
I don't, and will avoid it in the future, choosing to play one of the other nearby courses instead.

Do you think that the present course is the best possible design that the site could have yielded ?

[guest 47-Q]

Hard to support the argument that Spanish Bay is the best course that could have been built on the sight, Mr Mucci.  It is a plesant enough place, but last place among the public access courses on the Monterrey Peninsular.

It lacks a certain continuity and is rather disjointed with a very high variability in the quality of the holes. 1-3 and 16-18 leave you wanting for more even though some of hte better holes are there.  The "green stakes" are a shame, they even get in the way of shots..

[A_Clay_Man]

Required to take a cart? Maybe in your definition of required. But that statement is blatantly false.

Pat- I do believe your premise is wrong. There is no water right or left. All water is short of the green. DO you believe that one must always be able to see the putting surface? I can think of many a great hole where that is not possible.

As for the rest of the course the ping pong reference escapes me. It's not like it's target golf all the way around. and one most of those option riddle holes, strategy is dictated by ones ability or lack thereof.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

I don't know of many good, blind par 3 holes with water, but perhaps you could name a few.

You didn't answer my question with respect to the whether the current design is the best the site could have yielded.

You like the course, and that works well for you.
It's not one of my favorites and I feel comfortable saying that I don't like it.  So, we just disagree on its merits.

But, I would appreciate your analysis with respect to whether the current golf course is the best possible golf course that the site could have yielded.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- I don't have the "eye" to properly answer your question in any other way than, yes. As much as you are certain that the only answer to your question is no, I find no fault with most of the architecture. The routing is a pleasure to walk with almost every hole having some angle change and therefore wind effect. The holes start and close on the ocean.

Other than that damn road, hotel, and subsequent condo phases, within the white stakes of the golf course what could've been better?

I do know that there is a special feeling when playing there and it really starts to overtake me on your favorite hole, the ocean front 8th.