[wsmorrison]

I believe I could route a golf course that would use the natural site well enough to be considered decent.  I think I could come up with general concepts for the individual holes that would present a variety of challenges and enjoyable difficulty.  To go beyond that and have drawings or on-ground instructions that translated a specific design to be implemented on the ground and provide a reasonably efficient maintenance process would be impossible.  

Is it an extraordinary talent to put in a lot of serious study and effort into creating a golf course that is economically efficient to maintain or is it common practice?  I suspect that it is not when I look at a course like Tobacco Road and others.  For this reason, that is I think architectural talent must depend upon creating something that is sustainable in terms of holding a look and being cost efficient, I think it is fair to criticize the shortcomings in a complete analysis.

[paul cowley]

I believe I could route a golf course that would use the natural site well enough to be considered decent.  I think I could come up with general concepts for the individual holes that would present a variety of challenges and enjoyable difficulty.  To go beyond that and have drawings or on-ground instructions that translated a specific design to be implemented on the ground and provide a reasonably efficient maintenance process would be impossible.  

Is it an extraordinary talent to put in a lot of serious study and effort into creating a golf course that is economically efficient to maintain or is it common practice?  I suspect that it is not when I look at a course like Tobacco Road and others.  For this reason, that is I think architectural talent must depend upon creating something that is sustainable in terms of holding a look and being cost efficient, I think it is fair to criticize the shortcomings in a complete analysis.

Wayne....see my next post.

[paul cowley]

Michael...."Garland and me are girly men"....nah....just amateurs who haven't gotten a break.
Personally I think almost any of the top 50 posters here could make a positive contribution designing a course the first time out.

I'd enjoy helping facilitate that but its not my dirt, and for now I am but a broke philanthropist......but if things change, I think it would be fun to invite the top 50 to design a GCAtlas course [I have done the math and that works out to be 3.6 people inputting per hole].

Just imagine......

Michael and Wayne.....this idea might sound silly to some, but take the time to check out the top 10 posters here.
More than a little talent grouped together there.

Hell, it would be fun to just get that group together in a room, much less 200 acres.

[paul cowley]

Yes.  Maybe not on a deadline because I'd need time to figure out answers to problems.  But yes.  I don't think there is any aspect of GCA that is beyond comprehension.  If there is, somebody is going to explain what it is.

Shivas....you do know you are in the top 10 list, don't you? ...relax, its all downhill from there

[JMorgan]

Absolutely I do, Patrick.  With proper guidance, most of the top posters here could do it.

I think what Mike says about time is critical in any endeavor is correct, no doubt, and what Sean says re: learning gca like any other profession is correct.  Experience = learning from mistakes.  

At the same time, there are economic factors that come into play that are fine in the imagination but most likely scary as hell in reality.  Mr. Cowley, I would like to here about how you entered the profession at a relatively late stage in your life some time -- or now.

The top contributors of this website could certainly design a very decent golf course with the proper initial practical guidance.  But I don't doubt that it's extremely difficult for the first eight-ten years without a good mentor and the key people to plug into the many phases of completion.

[George Pazin]

Come on, Shiv, you'd get totally hung up on making certain there was nothing in any conceivable putting line - and thus be totally paralyzed.

I'm entertained by paul's term "broke philanthropist". I think I'm one of those, too. Anyone else?

[George Pazin]

Yes.  Maybe not on a deadline because I'd need time to figure out answers to problems.  But yes.  I don't think there is any aspect of GCA that is beyond comprehension.  If there is, somebody is going to explain what it is.

Shivas....you do know you are in the top 10 list, don't you? ...relax, its all downhill from there

Damn, I'm #11! And I wouldn't feel right overtaking Wayne at #10.

There's a big gap down to #12, Bill McBride.

All I have to do is wait it out - someone in the top 10 is bound to slip up and get banned at some point.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Since the question was 'do you think you could design a decent golf course' not 'do you think you could design and build a decent golf course' I think the answer for most of us is unequivocally 'Yes'.


I didn't mean on paper, I meant "IN THE GROUND"[/color]

de·sign (dĭ-zîn')

v., -signed, -sign·ing, -signs.

v.tr.

To conceive or fashion in the mind; invent: design a good excuse for not attending the conference.
To formulate a plan for; devise: designed a marketing strategy for the new product.
To plan out in systematic, usually graphic form: design a building; design a computer program.
To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect: a game designed to appeal to all ages.
To have as a goal or purpose; intend.
To create or execute in an artistic or highly skilled manner.

Same old Patrick,

Same old Mike, limited, with nothing of substance to add.[/color]

why not make a complete statement upfront instead of leaving things open to interpretation in order to criticize?


Feel free to initiate your own threads.
That way you can set the perameters as you please.

I thought my question was a simple question, evidently it wasn't simple enough for you[/color]

And, of course, leave out my disclaimer that I would have no chance to bring any preliminary design to completion without the advice of experts.  

Perhaps you overlooked the word "CREATE" in the definition of "design"

Don't blame me for your limited understanding of the word[/color]

None of us is capable of building a decent golf course without years of training,

That's your limited opinion, one not universally embraced.
I know a fellow, a businessman, who, with NO prior training built a decent golf course on land he owned in New England.
If he could do it .........[/color]

it's the same as asking someone if they could build a decent automobile and including the tooling and manufacturing process as part of the requirement.

It's not remotely similar.
Only one who's limited, or, an obstructionist could draw that analogy[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is it an extraordinary talent to put in a lot of serious study and effort into creating a golf course that is economically efficient to maintain or is it common practice?  

Wayne,

You've belonged to a few clubs, are there any that are economically efficient to maintain given the desires of the membership and the televising of PGA Tour events every weekend ?

Isn't the cost to maintain purely a function of membership demands/objectives ?

[Adam Clayman]

The answer has to be yes.

Without it, there would be no PV's & Oakmont's. Those types of dreamers are essential in any medium.
Modern day examples are hard to come by, but Eric Bergstol would qualify. Woudn't he?

[Jeffrey Prest]

I'll tell you one thing I've become perhaps the best in the world at with golf course architecture.

That would be surreptiously moving "off-limits" environmental stakes. And if I see one of them chartreusse-tailed snails-----MASH with the boot.

Yeah, heaven forbid that the environment comes between you and your golf, eh? Can't tell you how proud this makes me to be a golfer: no-one knows what to do with this planet but us...  

[wsmorrison]

"Isn't the cost to maintain purely a function of membership demands/objectives ?"

Pat,

Not purely a function of that at all.  I did not mean maintenance such as involved in championship conditioning.  I meant the way the course is designed and built; that has a lot to do with it as well.  Natural features and features designed to look natural stand the test of time better without constant intervention and maintenance.  Abrupt non-natural features require more maintenance, are harder to mow and often cost more to maintain.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
You mentioned Tobacco Road before.  I remember Mike Strantz stating about the extensive amount of maintenance required to make Tobacco Road "look like it was unmaintained".  

[Walt_Cutshall]

This thread is just LOL funny!

[Mike_Young]

That is a hell of a thing to say, Paul, I really appreciate that.

You are doggone right I am an amateur, as is George Pazin, Dan Kelly, Slag Bandoon et al....

It is just impossible to intelligibly claim you would be skilled in "putting the course in dirt" without having actually done it a few times....for real.

It is silly to discuss how you would route a course until you actually have a real piece of land to start with, too....

But I think a few things can be concluded.  Budgetary considerations would encourage us to use as many natural features as possible, both to decrease earth moving costs and decrease the "shock" a piece of land withstands when the heavy equipment comes rumbling.

What I will call "thrill factor" considerations would encourage us to utilize scenic pieces of the property.  Mountain peaks as backdrops, vicious cross hazards, skyline greens, etc...

....but Pat Mucci would say I am designing "in a vacuum" here, and he would be completely correct, just as any exercise in designing a "virtual" course is doomed to never fully equate to the real thing.

I feel badly about biting off Mike Young's head earlier this evening.  I'm sorry, Mike, please forgive me.  I can well imagine the golf course development industry is something unlike any we gcaers can imagine.  Long Shadow looks sweet, I hope to play it someday.  

I love Paul's idea of 50 gcaers contributing to the design of a course.  That'd be fun.  I think I am winning the competition for "latest post" this night.  Four AM.....where are the Brits???

Michael D,
Not a problem with biting my head off.....anytime....
Mike

[Mike_Cirba]

Not only could I design a decent golf course, I would in fact design the greatest golf course ever built...something akin to a man-made wonder of the world.

Yeah, that's the ticket.  

[Tom_Doak]

I must add that while I think a lot of posters here could do a good job, the "conditions" you all have been adding to make the task possible are somewhat offensive to me.

Sure, if you have professional technical help, you'll do better.  Who wouldn't?  But there are at least 1000 guys in the technical end of the design and construction business who could do the same thing -- and why would they help you be a genius instead of doing it themselves?

You have to be a little bit arrogant to decide that you should be a golf course designer because you know how to do it better than everybody else, and that's okay.  But the ones who want to do it without learning the other aspects of the business themselves are in a different category for me.

[paul cowley]

JMorgan asked ....." Mr. Cowley, I would like to here about how you entered the profession at a relatively late stage in your life some time -- or now." and I missed it.


JM please call me Paul, and I don't like long posts of my own....but I will include a sequential list of the main wage earning jobs I have had....starting at age 12, with some blanks I'm sure. Its probably not your typical route and thats why it took some time. I first decided I wanted to design golf courses when I was about twenty one.

Insert runner and Linotype lead melter helper.

Plant nursery laborer

Dry stone masonry apprentice

Nursery propagation and planting laborer

Landscape maintenance laborer

Landscape contracting laborer

Framing contractor laborer

Car wash laborer

Clearing contract laborer

Plant nursery digging foreman

Stone masonry, lawn maintenance and landscape contracting/owner

Off shore oil worker

Greens keeper

Perennial plant nursery production/owner

Landscape company/owner

General contracting company/owner

Landscape design and contracting company/owner

Resort development design and contracting company/owner

Land planning and development company/owner

Land planning and golf course design company/owner

Various design and development companies/owner/partner

Conservation planning and green development/future



JM....not sure if this helps or even what it means

[TEPaul]

Oh, Jeeesus, we have another over-arching environmentalist on here who can't take a joke.  

Well, then, the next time I see a Chartreuse tailed snail I'll kiss the little motha.

It's not likely I will be seeing any chartreuse tailed snails, though, since I make the little creature up.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Why do environmentalists never seem to attack the elements that are connected to their occupation ?

They always seem to want to rain on everyone else's parade.

[Dan Kelly]

I must add that while I think a lot of posters here could do a good job, the "conditions" you all have been adding to make the task possible are somewhat offensive to me.

Sure, if you have professional technical help, you'll do better.  Who wouldn't?  But there are at least 1000 guys in the technical end of the design and construction business who could do the same thing -- and why would they help you be a genius instead of doing it themselves?

You have to be a little bit arrogant to decide that you should be a golf course designer because you know how to do it better than everybody else, and that's okay.  But the ones who want to do it without learning the other aspects of the business themselves are in a different category for me.

Offended? I thought we were just speaking hypothetically.

But, if we aren't: Didn't those "guys in the technical end of the design and construction business" help YOU be a genius?

Maybe I'm just confused.

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:

I spent about five years being a grunt laborer and then a plan-drawer and then a greens finisher and a shaper and a lead associate before I ever tried to design anything on my own.  Yes, of course, I was learning from everybody along the way.  I am still learning.  And I think have a bigger payroll to help me create courses than anybody who posts here.

The premise of this question is that posters could design a decent course RIGHT NOW, without that apprenticeship -- but many have qualified that they could do it if they had the right people looking over their shoulder.

I'm just trying to point out that there are lots of people in the business who are more trained to design and build courses than most of the posters here, yet most of them can't get a chance.  So it's pretty naive to think that they would all help someone from Golf Club Atlas get their break instead.  

I had a great advantage on that when I was 21.  Nobody thought I had a freaking chance at it, so they were all willing to share their knowledge!

[Ray Richard]

Great post Tom D,

I may add the amount of dreamy sketching done on men’s grill napkins that is done in the country club world is amazing. The fact is if you get 99% of these guys out in the field with 12” of talcum powder like dust blowing around they would quickly disappear. They don’t know about the “fog of war” that is golf course construction; pushing contractors, weather delays, obnoxious owners, and backstabbers lurking behind the scenes. There is a connection between creative souls and jealousy that is amazing, everybody wants you to fail but everybody wants credit.

Then on opening day everybody is all hugs and smiles.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I think most of you underestimate what it takes to get a course "in the ground".

Drawing it on paper by hand or on the computer is nice, but that is about 10% of the deal if you ask me...a very important 10%, but still minor compared to taking your drawing from a 2D medium and actually building it.

I'm not trying to be smug...I just think managing the construction is where the rubber meets the road. And I'm not talking about being the project manager or construction superintendent...I'm talking about communicating your ideas in a clear and concise manner so you get it built like you envisioned.
You need to be able to tell the builders what you want...as precisely as possible...before they build....as anyone can come along after the features have been made and change them...and when you want a change...say making some sort of feature larger and the PM ask you where you want the material cut from to create more fill...your supposed to have already thought that out...it's a lot harder then I thought it would be, and I'm guessing most here would come away with the same feeling.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Dave,
Maybe I could try a murder case or create an offering memorandum if I read a few books and participate in an attorney's chat room...but I doubt I'd find many clients.
The "basic skills" I need probably include some extra college and a few years of experience.
Same here...yes a first timer could do it if he has the basic skills and is well prepared. The skills usually come from a combination of study and experience and the preparation comes form participating at some level in the activity in the past.

Mike Nuzzo is building his first course right now; he's spent the last 6-8 years studying and working with various architects and construction companies...and he has an engineering degree....and he's smart too.

You’re not going to learn how to do it by reading a book or playing golf.

I'm sure there are people here who could do a fine job...once they learned how to do the job.

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