[Mike Nuzzo]

I enjoyed the 14th.

And that's with an X the first time I played and a 4 the second.

Two of us played to the right side.

Hey my right side playing partner..... I'll vouch for his accuracy - as he can for mine.

[Norbert P]

The 14th @ Bandon Trails

 

It is not a hard hole at all.  I merely hit 5 perfect shots and I'm in.

[David Wigler]

David W:

I understand that you don't like the 14th at Trails, even though some of the things you said about it were wrong.  (Just because you can't get to the green doesn't mean it's impossible.)

However, I did have a topo map of that property years ago, and I've got to question you about your proposed change in the routing.  Between the 13th green and the 14th hole there is a 100-foot-high sand dune ridge.  Are you proposing that they should have made an 100-foot-uphill par 4 along the way?  There is no way to go "around" the ridge except at the north end (where you go around the end of it from #6 to #7), so once they did that, they either had to have the entire course on the east side of the ridge or come back over to the 14th tee, which, believe it or not, is the easiest walk up and over you can find along that ridge.

I've got to press this issue because I've often heard golf course raters make comments about the routing of the course like they knew how to fix something, as you did here, and it's not uncommon for their suggestions to ignore the realities of the site.

Tom,

Thank you for your opinion.  I did not make my comments as a golf rater, simply someone who played the course.  My group had four low single digits.  We played each course twice - once in the afternoon, so we could see it in the wind, once in the calmer morning.  We played from as far back as they would let us and had at least three of us in the 70's in every round.  

I am not shocked that this hole would end up easier for bogey golfers - it is very hard to make a double bogey and much harder for good golfers - you simply need to get lucky to make a par.  There is no reward.  You cannot drive a 330 yard hole without a run up area (Maybe Tiger can) but even if you did drive the green, the ball would run off one of the slopes.  You cannot hit 3W and keep it up top, unless you get lucky.  You cannot hold the green on the front 1/3 even with a SW (I tried this three times - a benefit of firm and fast greens).  In a tournament, I would hit 8I off the tee to leave me 130 and make sure I was left and then hope I could hold a PW from straight on 130 yards to a 24 foot wide front piece.  

There are two easy fixes in my mind.  Either clear out all of the trees on the left side and widen the hole 15 yards, so you have a chance to land it there or widen the front of the green by 10 yards to the left so the ball can hold.  This is simply a bad hole.

As for the routing, that is a shame.  I saw an aerial, not a topo.  My thought was that you could play a short four, with an extreme uphill second shot or a straight up hill par three and make the course a par 70.  You have forgotten more about that stuff than I know, so if you are saying that it could not happen, I will take your word for it.  If that is the case, than I believe that they need to widen the up top landing area on #18 and crown it so balls fall off both ways as opposed to every shot ending up in the same place.  

We had four different opinions on most things and as a whole, everyone liked the course but we had consensus that #14 was plain old bad and #18 was mediocre.  The other 16 were really good and sometimes great but GW has it #12 in the country and I am wondering if it can really be that high with such high profile flaws and a routing that requires a mid round cart - even if that is not the architects fault - other than they chose that specific routing.

[Walt_Cutshall]

Only having played BT 1x, #14 is the hole I think about most often -- I just KNOW I can drive that green...(sure, sucker).  

I also love the par 3s (and sorry Walt but esp. the fifth), dislike the middle section (but like the lake hole) and thought 18 was too rugged, and tough into the wind, for the finish -- but who said golf was supposed to be easy?

Matt-

I think the 5th is an outstanding par 3, except when they put the pin in that little cup in the valley. That green is superb without that "clown's mouth" feature.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave:

Now I know you are way better off discussing this with Tom Doak, but for what it's worth....

My experiences on BT and impressions of it are VERY different from yours.  We had no consensus on 14 - some loved it, some hated it.  Those who hated it did so for basically the reasons you state; those who loved it look beyond that and see that it can be had, or otherwise enjoy the infuriating challenge.  Note also I've played it with two different very diverse groups, and in several different winds. We also played it from an up tee which made driving the green very viable.

I have to ask, did you play it down-wind?  That makes driving it very doable, but oh does it complicate the second shot.  If anything it's easier into the wind or with a not too bad cross.

I also don't get your statement that it's very hard to make a double bogey - man I've seen scores from 2 to 9 on the hole....

And I've made double myself!

I don't suck that bad.  

As for 18 being mediocre, man I wish I lived in a world where a hole with sand dunes both sides and a raised green that's very tough to hit, with a view of the ocean to the side, is mediocre.  Your standards sure have risen, my friend!  I get the general complaints though - the fairway is very tough to hit and hold given the weird rolls.  Hey, hit less club downwind and more into the wind - problem solved.

 

TH

[Norbert P]

 David, perhaps what is upsetting is the hillcrest vista,  reminiscent of an Appalachian state of the hole?  

[Tom Huckaby]

David, perhaps what is upsetting is the hillcrest vista,  reminiscent of an Appalachian state of the hole?  

LOVE IT!

You are FAR better man than I, Slag.  I was wracking my brain trying to find a way to fit that in.  I have to ask if the state in which the hole is located sours Dave's demeanor also....

[Brian Noser]

I have played the hole a couple of times in not very good weather. First time I hit driver, wind I think was hurting a little, the aggresive route and was pin high left with a nice little chip to a very difficult back pin. I think I made 6. The next time I thought I would play safe hit wedge in and made a 5. It does take 2 good shots but I dont think it is a bad hole. In fact I really enjoyed playing it. I enjoyed BT more so then BD as well butt that is a different story. but yes i think it is that good... Huck was actually there for the second ocassion I am in his thought on the course and hole...

[ed_getka]

David,
   You make some interesting points, but the easier for a bogey golfer statement is SO far wrong that I sit here shaking my head in disbelief. I am amazed by some low handicappers who have utterly no idea how a higher handicapper plays golf. On #14 a bogey golfer could spend 4 or 5 strokes just going side to side on that hole if they didn't have an adequate short game. You are talking about a green that YOU can't hold, but a bogey golfer can easily make bogey. Please explain that one.
   

[Tom Huckaby]

Brian:

Heck yeah you were there - you were part of the second diverse group with whom I went to Bandon.  I don't think there was any consensus on 14, was there?

The other group I went with was pretty split on it too.  I'm just surprised Dave's group was unanimous in dislike of the hole.

Not sure we ever talked about 18 - what are you thoughts on that?  I can't see calling it mediocre... I like the hole... tough for sure but visually cool and not at all unfair....

TH

[Peter Pratt]

When I was at BT, I played in a foursome with 4 guys with an average of 10-12 and our caddies bet us each day that we couldn't beat a collective 25 on the hole. They won once and we won once.

I hit driver both times: the first time I found the thin strip just short of the green and chipped past the hole and made 4. The 2nd time my drive drifted right and I made a good 7.

I think a few minor modifications could make an over-the-top hole a great hole.

[Tom Huckaby]

Peter:

What changes do you have in mind?

See, I love how difficult the hole is and that it seems to drive good golfers like Dave W. batty.  Make the whole "fairer" or easier and it becomes just like a lot of other golf holes... It's pretty darn unique as it is.  I say don't touch it... just like I wouldn't want to change a blade of grass on 6 PD, another bitch of a short par 4.

I'm open to ideas, though.

 

[Garland Bayley]

...
See, I love how difficult the hole is and that it seems to drive good golfers like Dave W. batty.  ...

Sounds like a great hole to me!

This thread sounds like it deserves much of the criticism that Alister MacKenzie heaps on good players for trying to take all interest out of a hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Huck and/or others:

I have played Pac Dunes and know how intimidating the 2nd shot into 6 green is.  For those who have played both PD and BT, would you say the intimidation and precisness factor for the 2nd shot on 14 is more or less?

Kalen

[David Wigler]

David,
   You make some interesting points, but the easier for a bogey golfer statement is SO far wrong that I sit here shaking my head in disbelief. I am amazed by some low handicappers who have utterly no idea how a higher handicapper plays golf. On #14 a bogey golfer could spend 4 or 5 strokes just going side to side on that hole if they didn't have an adequate short game. You are talking about a green that YOU can't hold, but a bogey golfer can easily make bogey. Please explain that one.
   

Ed,

My point may not have been clear.  Easy is a relative term.  If a group of bogey golfers (18 handicaps) played BT, my assumption is the average score would be 99 - 1.5 strokes above par per hole.  I play almost every Sat morning with a group of bogey golfers, so I know them a little.  They would hit any club in their bag off this tee and end up in the collection area to the right.  They would have a wedge in their hands and try to hit the green.  Most would go over in the high collection area.  From there, they would putt onto the surface up the slope.  They would then two putt and make bogey.  The stroke average is +1 to par or .5 better than the overall stoke average - thus an easy hole.

A group of Mid-Am golfers would hit any club in their bag off the tee as it ends up in the same spot anyways.  They would then aim for the very front part of the green, so a mistake is short in the trap, not long or they would intentionally aim left of the green, so they could have a straight on chip.  From the bunker or just left, they would take dead aim at the hole and get up and down 50% of the time.  Stroke average 4.5.  Our average score at BT was 78 or +.33 per hole.  That means this hole played .17 harder than the average - thus a hard hole.  Although it is hard to the scratch and easy to the high handicapper, the scratch actually averages 1 stroke less on the hole.  Does that math exercise make my point make sense.

PS - Maybe this hole works from up a couple of boxes, where you could reach the surface and if it bounces off, than you can putt it back on in two.  Certainly this is a better hole with a back pin, where the green is actually able to hold a shot.  On paper, the hole looks fine because you cannot see how high up the fairway the slope pushes shots to the right.  On the ground, this hole does not work.

PPS - While UofM was getting beat by Oregon, I was shooting 75 on PD the first time seeing it from the tips in 30-mile-an-hour winds.  When i got in and saw the score, I was immensely thankful that I had given up my tickets to the game and instead was in Paradise.

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck and/or others:

I have played Pac Dunes and know how intimidating the 2nd shot into 6 green is.  For those who have played both PD and BT, would you say the intimidation and precisness factor for the 2nd shot on 14 is more or less?

Kalen

They're pretty damn similar, I'd say.  The differences are 6 PD has more round-ruining high score potential in that if you come on from the left over the bunker, you can keep going over and back off that right falloff all day.  There are likely more BIPs on 6 PD.  14 BT has more green contour, meaning chips from the area on top have huge interest and challenge also - something 6 PD neither has nor needs given the extreme narrowness of the green.  But in the end each hole makes for some extreme ass-tightening short shots.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave - your theories about how BT might play look good on the screen here, but do not match what I've witnessed.  The bogey golfer doesn't play as smart as you state, nor does the scratch work out like you say.  Many try for the green and then the 2-8 range comes in.

I also don't get your continued point that all tee shots missing right end up in the same area... it sure didn't work out that way my two trips.  We had shots ranging from 140 in to pin high hit to the right....

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Thanks Huck,

Based on pictures I've seen it sure seems getting out of that greenside bunker on #14 is doable.  On the other hand if I got in the massive bunker on #6, which I didn't, I would imagine I would have to chip out sideways back to the fairway.

Man I really need to get back to Bandon!!  

[Brian Noser]

Tom,

I dont think our group had a final thought I think some were indifferent not bad not great. And some liked I dont recall anyone hating it.

Re:18

The first time playing it I did not like the drive cause I had no clue where to go, once I got up there an saw it I did not have a problem or strong like or dislike either way. I think I hit 1 iron both times to try to get to the top of the hill. I knew where to go the second time and ended up in the same spot cause I did not think that you could aim that far left so I missed right. I am more indifferent right now on that hole then 14, I liked 14.

[David Wigler]

Dave - your theories about how BT might play look good on the screen here, but do not match what I've witnessed.  The bogey golfer doesn't play as smart as you state, nor does the scratch work out like you say.  Many try for the green and then the 2-8 range comes in.

I also don't get your continued point that all tee shots missing right end up in the same area... it sure didn't work out that way my two trips.  We had shots ranging from 140 in to pin high hit to the right....

TH

Huck,

You do not have an option to try for the green from the back tee (Well you do but the shot is not realistic). We played significantly faster than the group behind us (Finished almost three holes ahead) so the second time without any wind, I tried a bunch of shots.  I would argue that my power game is almost tour distance and accuracy.  My flaws are a indifferent iron game and a short game without much creativity.  I could not get anywhere near the putting surface.  Every drive would end up even with the front of the green all the way down the slope.  If I moved up two boxes, maybe driver would be the play because I would think i would make a lot of birdies from the front right bunker.  There is less than 15 yards of fairway between the slope and the trees on the left if Driver comes up short.  I would bet that if they play the Mid_am from the back tees and put the pin on the front part of the green, less than 10% hit Driver, less than 33% hit the green in two and hold it and more than 75% conclude it is a bad hole.  The front needs to be widened or the left, so you can land a shot.

Just my opinion, but any dissent is simply silly  

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks Huck,

Based on pictures I've seen it sure seems getting out of that greenside bunker on #14 is doable.  On the other hand if I got in the massive bunker on #6, which I didn't, I would imagine I would have to chip out sideways back to the fairway.

Man I really need to get back to Bandon!!  

I think you have this all correct... the bunker on 6PD is more massive and round-killing than the bunker on 14BT.  And I'd say this even if I hadn't holed out from the latter bunker, which I have.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I dont think our group had a final thought I think some were indifferent not bad not great. And some liked I dont recall anyone hating it.

Re:18

The first time playing it I did not like the drive cause I had no clue where to go, once I got up there an saw it I did not have a problem or strong like or dislike either way. I think I hit 1 iron both times to try to get to the top of the hill. I knew where to go the second time and ended up in the same spot cause I did not think that you could aim that far left so I missed right. I am more indifferent right now on that hole then 14, I liked 14.

That's my recollection re our group as well.  Glad to see I haven't completely lost it.

And re 18, well... as I say I can see the complaints, I just can't see taking them to the level of calling the hole "mediocre" as Dave did.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave - your theories about how BT might play look good on the screen here, but do not match what I've witnessed.  The bogey golfer doesn't play as smart as you state, nor does the scratch work out like you say.  Many try for the green and then the 2-8 range comes in.

I also don't get your continued point that all tee shots missing right end up in the same area... it sure didn't work out that way my two trips.  We had shots ranging from 140 in to pin high hit to the right....

TH

Huck,

You do not have an option to try for the green from the back tee (Well you do but the shot is not realistic). We played significantly faster than the group behind us (Finished almost three holes ahead) so the second time without any wind, I tried a bunch of shots.  I would argue that my power game is almost tour distance and accuracy.  My flaws are a indifferent iron game and a short game without much creativity.  I could not get anywhere near the putting surface.  Every drive would end up even with the front of the green all the way down the slope.  If I moved up two boxes, maybe driver would be the play because I would think i would make a lot of birdies from the front right bunker.  There is less than 15 yards of fairway between the slope and the trees on the left if Driver comes up short.  I would bet that if they play the Mid_am from the back tees and put the pin on the front part of the green, less than 10% hit Driver, less than 33% hit the green in two and hold it and more than 75% conclude it is a bad hole.  The front needs to be widened or the left, so you can land a shot.

Just my opinion, but any dissent is simply silly  

So the answer is the hole doesn't work from 330 without wind help, for a power golfer like you.  But you're a tiny minority of the golf world, my friend.  And I still think with some wind help the green would be at the very least tempting even for you from that back tee.

I've seen two 8 handicaps hit the green, from one set up from where you played.  Thus I have a hard time calling the shot impossible.

I also think your suggestions would only weaken what is now a very unique and fun and challenging golf hole.  But to each his own.

I also concur that 75% of the Midam participants are gonna hate the hole... which makes me call it GREAT!

 
Notice no comment about football... heck your alma mater is my team this week given the opponent.  We want only positive thoughts.

[Kalen Braley]

Would removing the green-side bunkers make the hole easier or more difficult??

Easier if approach shots from the right could be bumped into the hill instead of being required to fly to the putting surface?

Or more difficult because inprecise short approaches would then roll back down the slope instead of staying put in the bunker?  In addition when chipping from behind the green, shots struck too firm look like they could then roll several yards down the now bunkerless face.

Are there any bunkerless holes on the course, and if not, would this be the best candidate if one wanted such??

[David Wigler]

...I also concur that 75% of the Midam participants are gonna hate the hole... which makes me call it GREAT!

If that is the case, than clearly Art Hills is the greatest architect known to man  .  

The hole worked for none of us.  There is no shot.  Quirky is fine.  Unfair is not.  Blow up the green or widen the landing area.  I can see where 18 could be argued as quirky.  If 75% of the Mid-Am participants do agree (And we both think they will) than it is bad.

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