Is Bandon Trails Really That Good

[David Wigler]

As a unabashed C&C lover, I had hopes that they might be able to take a vastly inferior piece of land and make it as interesting, creative and great as PD and BD.  Through 13 holes, I thought that they had pulled it off.  Then I hit #14.  This has to be the single worst hole on a top 20 course ever.  

More amazing, the routing had to be screwed up to get you to the teeing area (More on that later).  So after having you take a golf cart to get up the hill, you are faced with a 325 yard hole with no way to reach the green and no option other than hitting a shot that will end up in a bottom collection area 40 - 100 yards out on the right.  The green is then the most severe push-up on the course with 8 paces (Yes I paced it twice) of green on the front 1/3 (Where the pin was both days).  In essence they built a zero reward risk hole with an impossible green to hold.  The second day, I played three balls off the tee with a Driver, Hybrid, 6-I.

They all were hit almost exactly where I wanted, all rolled into the collection area and none left me a shot where I could hold the green.  Two of my second shots hit the green and went long (Where you have no chance at all).  I chunked the third into the front bunker and got up and down for par.  So in essence, it is a zero reward risk hole where the best play is 6I, chunk SW, sand shot, putt.  Simply puke.

#15 and #16 were not bad but certainly not as strong as the first 13.  Then came #18.  What a mess.  Again the fairway is so severely sloped that no matter where you hit, the ball ends up in a collection area low left with a PW into the green.  Boring.  Even more so, because #18 is needed to settle matches and a skanked 3W ground ball is going to end up right next to a pure down the middle DR.  

Here is what really had me lost.  Why didn't C&C simple make a L to R Dogleg par four to connect #13 to #14 and lose #18 completely.  They could shuttle you back to the clubhouse after the round.  I cannot get why they messed up their routing and forced you into a cart only to end with such a bad hole.  

Statistically, if there are 8,000 modern golf courses in the country, than the difference between 20th and 40th is .0025%.  Can a course really have two absolute stinker golf holes and a routing that requires a cart even for walkers and really be in the top 20?  No matter how good the first 13 holes were, this is what I am struggling with as a consider the Bandon Trails experience.

What did everyone else think?

[Jim Colton]

I birdied #14 by driving pin high just left of the green and getting up and down, so I know it can be done.  I agree that long can be a little too penal.  My father-in-law hit just over the green and his ball kept rolling have way to the next tee box.

The stroke avg in the recent mid-am qualifier was 4.66, one of the highest amongst par 4's.  Very difficult for such a short hole.

[CHrisB]

David,
Would it surprise you to hear that #14 is Ben Crenshaw's (and Mike Kaiser's) favorite hole at Bandon Trails?

I liked the hole, but would like to see something done (either clearing out the left or finding a tee location farther right, even if further down the hill) to allow the player a better chance to get the tee shot into the left side of the fairway.

I too found the 18th awkward, but not enough to detract from my overall very favorable opinion of the course. There's just too much good stuff going on out there for a couple of strange holes to take all of it away. (BTW I liked 15-16 a lot...the only stretch I found a little ordinary compared to the rest was #7-10--only #8 really stood out for me.)

[Mike Nuzzo]

I played twice and made 2 fours at the 14th - once from over the green.  Two of our foursome stayed on the upper part of the fairway - left.

I liked it just fine - and I had to walk up the hill to get there.

Walking off the 15th green I was awestruck by the beauty of the setting leading to the trail -- it was picture perfect.  No surprise Ran picked it as his picture to lead his write up.

16 was my least favorite hole - although a couple pretty good greenside bunkers.

18 was fair.

I think stinkers is too strong.

I thought you said they wouldn't ever design the trails course...  

[Tim Bert]

David,

Full disclosure up front.  I'm a stat sicko, so I apologize.  I've tracked a lot of numbers for my group in Bandon.  We've been there three times (2003, 2005, 2007) so we've played Bandon Trails on two different occasions.  We've played the course three times.

For our group, which includes 3 golfers in the 10-12 handicap range and 1 in the 4-5 range, the hole plays as the 15th most difficult at the resort.  Certainly not a pushover, but not over-the-top hard either.  It plays to about a 5.33, which sounds high, but remember the make-up of my group.  33 of the 54 holes play to bogey or harder for us.

I made par my first two tries.  Once I hit driver and landed just left of the green.  Chipped up and two-putted for par.  The second time I mishit my driver into the forest on the left and got a good bounce back to the left side of the fairway.  I hit the green and rolled off with my approach, chipped up, and one putted for par.  The most recent time, I made a 6.

For two of the four of us in the group, the hole played easier than a bogey.  For me it is only the 44th most difficult hole at the resort.  For two others in the group, it is amongst the top 10 most difficult.

#14 is certainly volatile, but it hasn't played unreasonably hard in my experiences out there.

It's definitely a love-it or hate-it type of hole.  I'm actually right in the middle.  I like the hole and think it is a fun challenge where just about any score is in play, but it isn't my favorite on the course.

[Sean Leary]

David,

Where exactly would you build a hole connecting 13 and 14.  I am confused.

I like 14 and 15 but don't like 16 too much. Was 14 into the wind or down wind?

[Jeff Doerr]

I've made the comment here before that I really didn't like the lake on the back. 11 is a very good hole, but I thought a routing from 11 tee to 12 green would be interesting. Then you could have an uphill skyline green along the ridge after the current 13th hole. 14 could use a little more room on the left, but I liked 14-18.

7-10 did not stand out for me either - very good, but not world class.

[ed_getka]

David,
   You have an interesting take on the course. I like #14, not as much as #6 on PD, but I didn't find it that difficult to hit the tee shot where I wanted it up on the left. Yes, the green is small and difficult to hold, as it should be with a short iron in hand.
   #15 is just a classic great hole in my book. #16 I didn't care for much the first time around but after a couple more times around it began to grown on me, mostly up around the green.
   #18 I agree is a bit weird, but I never hit a good drive on that hole so I haven't completely made up my mind about the hole. I do like the approach shot and green.
   The holes I thought the least of were #9 and the green on #6 which was essentially flat and devoid of character except when the pin is in the back right next to the bunker.
   Overall I like the course and thought they did a pretty good job with the land they had to work with.
    My favorite hole there is #4. I just love that diagonal ridge that sets up the entire hole.

[Tim Pitner]

I think very highly of Bandon Trails No. 14.  I've seen the green driven and eagles made.  I've played it twice and made an easy par (3 wood to 20 yards in front of green) and a stressful, 2-putt bogey (from the right).  To me, it's a highly strategic, short par 4 that really turns the screws if you don't position your tee shot well.

I don't blame C&C for the cart.  The walk up the hill isn't really that bad; I understand that a health incident prompted the resort to use the cart to shuttle people to the tee.  

In addition to #14, I also like #4, #15 and #17 a lot.  #16 and #18 would be among my less favorite holes.  BTW, you must have had a much different wind than we had--we weren't hitting anything close to PWs into #18.  

Count me among those who think Bandon Trails is underrated.  

[Norbert P]

  Bandon Trails is a gauntlet of golf. It is subtle and torturous and it never bores me.  The journey through the various environs is educational, and each time I play it, I appreciate it more.  It has a tough finishing stretch, physically.  

The foibles I've had on 14 make me grin.

"Who's to say par shouldn't be a pitch and putt?"

It is a great course.

[Bob Jenkins]

Norbert and the rest!

I recall posting on 14 of BT a year or so ago and getting dumped on. I found it goofy, what with the bike saddle green, ie slim in the front with big fall offs and a little wider in the rear (as my wife has become). Others responded that it was a great "go for broke" hole. I can see that but it makes no sense to me to go for the green off the tee. How would you ever get a shot to hold on that green? Impossible!

Bob J

[Tom_Doak]

Tim Bert:

What are the five hardest holes at the resort for your group of bogey golfers?

David W:

I understand that you don't like the 14th at Trails, even though some of the things you said about it were wrong.  (Just because you can't get to the green doesn't mean it's impossible.)

However, I did have a topo map of that property years ago, and I've got to question you about your proposed change in the routing.  Between the 13th green and the 14th hole there is a 100-foot-high sand dune ridge.  Are you proposing that they should have made an 100-foot-uphill par 4 along the way?  There is no way to go "around" the ridge except at the north end (where you go around the end of it from #6 to #7), so once they did that, they either had to have the entire course on the east side of the ridge or come back over to the 14th tee, which, believe it or not, is the easiest walk up and over you can find along that ridge.

I've got to press this issue because I've often heard golf course raters make comments about the routing of the course like they knew how to fix something, as you did here, and it's not uncommon for their suggestions to ignore the realities of the site.

[Walt_Cutshall]

My take on BT is that it is a course with a bunch of fantastic holes, one stinker (14), and a bunch of annoyances that greatly detract from the enjoyment of playing there (for me). My problem with 14 is that the tee ball tends to end up in the same place regardless of the type of shot you hit off the tee. The green is a little severe for my liking, as well.

There are a number of places on BT where tee balls seem to collect, as evidenced by a small "divot-land" area in the fairway. Number 4 is a perfect example of this. I hit my drive down the left side; my buddy hit down the right. Both of us went the berm in the fairway, and we both ended up in a section of destroyed fairway turf--a place where a ton of drives had obviously collected. Of course, the green complex on 4 is outstanding, so it is a shame that you can't control your angle into the green.

There are numerous other places on the course that need some refinement/regrading because balls and or water collect there. Maybe some of this work has been done since we played there a couple years ago. (One hole in particular had already been staked for renovation when we were there.)

There are some other subjective things that I dislike: after the rough beauty of number 1 & 2, you are confronted with an ocean of grass running across 3 and 4. The silly cup-like depression in the valley of the 5th green (an otherwise outstanding hole). The hideous pond on 11 that reminds me of a water treatment lagoon. There are a bunch of other things that I can't recall right now without launching a search for my yardage book.

I do think BT pales in comparison to BD and PD. Were those courses not so outstanding, one might not be so critical of BT.

[Matt MacIver]

Only having played BT 1x, #14 is the hole I think about most often -- I just KNOW I can drive that green...(sure, sucker).  

I also love the par 3s (and sorry Walt but esp. the fifth), dislike the middle section (but like the lake hole) and thought 18 was too rugged, and tough into the wind, for the finish -- but who said golf was supposed to be easy?

[Eric Olsen]

We recently played Bandon Trails, and it was my and my brothers 3rd time playing it.  Each time I play it I enjoy it more.  However, I agree with many of the criticisms of 14, and my thought would be to pull the green back 60 yards or so, which would leave a downhill blind approach, while still giving big hitters the chance to drive the green.  That said, we did manage some pars, including a nice up and down from short left to a back right pin placement.  The green is simply too severe, imho.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave my friend, I'm gonna jump in with many others and disagree with your take here on BT.  I'd say take Mike Nuzzo's answer and add in a dose of Getka and a dash of Doak and you've got my take.

I also think 14 is a hole that does grow on you in repeated trips.  Man I love that hole... it's the one I look forward most to playing when I get to that course.  Then again, I'd say the same about 6 at PD.  Perhaps crazily-difficult short par fours are just my cup of tea.

TH

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

David,
To answer your question, yes it is that good.

I appreciate Tom's response regarding routing. One review said that another architect could have put two courses on the same amount of land. I think Bill Coore was bemused by this, as the ridge that Tom refers to chews up so much land.

Also, Matt MacIver refers to 18 as "tough and rugged", into the wind, you cannot get to the collection area as easily and it is a different hole, I assume you were downwind?

Fourteen does not stink. Given that people have a wedge in their hands and the green is as deep as it is, it should not be the hardest GIR out there. The only time you approach the green to the narrow portion (8 paces as you pointed out) is when you have missed your short iron in the bunker right or the chipping area left. Is it a tough up and down? Yes. But so it should be if you missed with a wedge.

We had a group on a cold day in February who were birdie-par-par-pick up. I am sure that is not indicative of every group, but the pick up was the most aggressive. I have seen similar scores at Riviera's 10th (I am not saying the Trails' 14th is in that category) and that scoring diversity is part of why it is one of my favourite holes.

[BCrosby]

If "birdie-par-par-pickup" is anything like a typical scoring spread, the TEP Conjecture says that the 14th is a remarkably good strategic hole.

Bob

[Tim Pitner]

I recall posting on 14 of BT a year or so ago and getting dumped on. I found it goofy, what with the bike saddle green, ie slim in the front with big fall offs and a little wider in the rear (as my wife has become). Others responded that it was a great "go for broke" hole. I can see that but it makes no sense to me to go for the green off the tee. How would you ever get a shot to hold on that green? Impossible!

You hit the flat spot 20 or 30 yards in front of the green, get lucky and have it roll on.  You make a 10 foot putt and--boom--eagle.  I've seen it done and, downwind, the green is certainly reacheable.  

Having only played it twice, I don't claim to be an expert on the hole, but my observation was that, if you missed your tee shot to the right, it was better to play your second to the flatter area in front of the green rather than trying to stop it on the green and risk going in the bunker if you're short or going off the other side (and leaving a very slippery shot) if you're long.  People with a more advanced pitching game than mine might think differently.  In any event, I enjoyed having to plot my way around the hole with danger everywhere.  It's certainly not a hole where you just aim at the pin (or even, necessarily, at the green) on your second shot.  

[Richard Boult]

I'll find out Monday about the 14th, but from what I've read and seen in photos, I can't wait to play this hole. It's strategy reminds me of my favorite at Cypress Ridge, the 7th, a drivable par 4 with OB left, lost balls long and short, and safety right, but leaving a challenging uphill wedge to the green.  I always go for the green, which requires a 240 yard carry, even though I've tallied a few more triples than eagles. I love visualizing the shot I'll need here and concentrating that little extra to pull it off.  The satisfaction of hitting this green from the tee outweighs the disappointment of that errant drive left. Great match play hole!

[Tom Huckaby]

RB:
The only thing BT 14 has in common with the hole you just pictured is that they are each short par 4s.  BT's green would appear to be about half the size of C's, with about twice the contour.  BT also has a VERY deep bunker front left.  You'll see.....

[Michael Blake]

I enjoyed the 14th.

And that's with an X the first time I played and a 4 the second.

Two in our group on both days hit the left (upper) side of the FW.  And seemingly pretty easily, for 13 handicappers.

Two of us played to the right side.

Green can definately be held if the right club is used and the shot is executed.  Seems that's not too much to be asked to do on a short par four.

[George Pazin]

It's gotta be great if it got Slag and Ben to both post on the same thread!

 

[Richard Boult]

RB:
The only thing BT 14 has in common with the hole you just pictured is that they are each short par 4s.  BT's green would appear to be about half the size of C's, with about twice the contour.  BT also has a VERY deep bunker front left.  You'll see.....

yes, you're right. I was speaking only of strategy... short par 4 with quite a bit of risk going for the green vs. tough wedge in on layup. Size and firmness of BT 14 green definitely raises the bar!

[Garland Bayley]

It's gotta be great if it got Slag and Ben to both post on the same thread!

 

There are trees on the hole. Of course Slagbert is going to like it.