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Dave_Miller

Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« on: September 12, 2007, 12:29:33 PM »
In his article in the Sept.8th issue of Golf Week Brad Klein does a review of Torrey Pines.

Among other things Brad Writes, "Torrey Pines has come a long way and is in far better management hands than it ever has been.  But all of the changes there for the 2008 US Open cannot mask an underlying truth about the monotonous structure of the golf holes.  They're mediocre, lack subtlety and require a one dimensional aerial game."

Brad has other comments, some very pointed, particularly concerning the new back tees.

As always with Brad it is interesting reading.

Anyone else have any thoughts on Torrey Pines as a venue for the US Open.

Fairways and Greens
Dave

Steve Lapper

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2007, 01:11:41 PM »
The golf course architectural equivalent of Ambien!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tim Pitner

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2007, 01:29:31 PM »
I enjoyed my 1 1/2 rounds at Torrey Pines South--I even bought a shirt there and I don't normally do that (I liked the shirt).  The beach and cliffs there are quite scenic.  I found the course challenging, mostly due to the dense, sticky rough (kikuyu?).  The problem with the course is that there really aren't any great holes and there are a number of mediocre ones.  4 and 12 get your attention, but nothing really special there.  

The USGA got carried away after the Bethpage Open--Torrey Pines isn't a U.S. Open caliber course.  I realize this sentiment is the prevailing view around here, but hey, it's true.  The greens aren't very interesting so the USGA will have to rely on length and growing the rough out to challenge the pros--a boring prescription.  Oh, and Tiger owns the place so I don't expect a competitive tournament either.  

Norbert P

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2007, 01:33:08 PM »
 5 o'clock - 7 o'clock bunkering.   Rinse. Repeat.

  "Why do you build me up (build me up) Buttercup, baby
Just to let me down (let me down) and mess me around ?"

  by the band Busted
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Dave_Miller

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2007, 01:36:55 PM »
The golf course architectural equivalent of Ambien!

Steve:
You do have a way with words.
Best
Dave

Dave_Miller

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2007, 03:00:34 PM »
In his article in the Sept.8th issue of Golf Week Brad Klein does a review of Torrey Pines.

Among other things Brad Writes, "Torrey Pines has come a long way and is in far better management hands than it ever has been.  But all of the changes there for the 2008 US Open cannot mask an underlying truth about the monotonous structure of the golf holes.  They're mediocre, lack subtlety and require a one dimensional aerial game."

Brad has other comments, some very pointed, particularly concerning the new back tees.

As always with Brad it is interesting reading.

Anyone else have any thoughts on Torrey Pines as a venue for the US Open.

Fairways and Greens
Dave

Does anyone in the Treehouse think Torrey Pines is an appropriate venue for a US Open.
Best
Dave

Tom Huckaby

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2007, 03:03:57 PM »
If the idea is to hold the US Open at a public course in Southern California, then yes, I think it's appropriate.  And I believe that's what the USGA had in mind, didn't they?

Phil Benedict

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2007, 03:04:55 PM »
It will have the best fountain in US Open history.

Norbert P

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2007, 03:14:39 PM »
  And it does have Black's Beach!  8)  Though I believe the folkies now have to package their packages under penalty of law.     Paranoia about second hand malenoma, methinks.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

John Kavanaugh

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2007, 03:17:17 PM »
I think people who want their tournament venues on tv to be stimulating on an intellectual design level are both selfish and petty.  The stretch of 11, 12, 13 and 14 are as good at bringing out tournament excitement as Amen Corner ever was.  12 is just simply one of the best long par fours every built at 505 uphill in a direct ocean wind.  I love Torrey Pines...I love the people of Southern California who trod through life paying too much for golf and I love that the 2008 Open is right where it is going to be.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 03:18:34 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike Benham

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2007, 03:39:09 PM »

Does anyone in the Treehouse think Torrey Pines is an appropriate venue for a US Open.
Best
Dave



Torrey Pines is a perfect venue for the US Open.

- No chance of rain to delay starting times or hamper the golfers (although early morning fog will be an issue)
- Acres and acres of property (the North Course) to support the infrastructure
- A relatively spread out course that can hold thousands of patrons
- Great scenery
- Plenty of fancy hotels, eateries and touristy vacation spots for the USGA types to take their families to (do you think the families really wanted to spend a week in Oakmont, PA?  The San Diego Zoo, Sea World, the beaches, Mexico, etc. - San Diego 1 Up ...)

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Kalen Braley

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2007, 03:41:25 PM »
If the goal is identify the best golfer who hits it both straight and long then Torrey would appear to work just fine.

Kalen Braley

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2007, 03:48:11 PM »
John is right though...

This is a good US Open venue for one reason and one reason only.  Its that Phil and Tiger have owned this course for the last decade and its very likely to produce a shootout come next June.

And who wouldn't want to see that??

Gib_Papazian

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2007, 03:52:05 PM »
I wanted to like Torrey Pines because I cling to so many fond memories of Billy Casper Golf Camp . . . . . The first time I saw the re-do it was with Shivas and Bernhardt in carts and it did not impress me in the same way the Trump National in Palos Verdes left me a bit cold.

Last year, I played it in a tournament from relatively sane tees (6700) and found the golf course very playable and shot a ridiculously low number relative to my current modest abilities.

Yet, with the exception of #14, there was not a single hole I found inspiring - including #3 - a pedestrian effort in a superb setting.

In my view - and with most of his work - there is a lack of interior hazards and mind-numbing repetition. If you take the greens at Lake Merced in Daly City and plug them in at Torrey South, nobody would notice the difference between them.

Whether it ought to be a U.S. Open venue or not is hardly the point. Any golf course of sufficient length can host an Open because layouts are unrecognizable under those tortuous conditions.

Given the choice, would anybody on this board rather play Baltusrol Lower over the Upper if all things were equal?

I'm sure Torrey will be a fine test for the big guns and San Diego is paradise with bikinis (or not at Black's Beach), but my memory of the golf course from my childhood has been ruined.

As Ran would say: "Lost Opportunity."

It came out a bit like Harding Park, good but not great, updated competently but certainly not artistically . . . . .

Let them give, say, Gil Hanse the job of doing over the North Course and the only people playing the South will be Japanese tourists or the same bozos who would rather play Medinah over Shoreacres.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 03:54:33 PM by Gib Papazian »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2007, 03:55:58 PM »
Artistic bunkers would look foolish against the majestic setting at Torrey Pines.  I don't beileve that it is the role of art to steal beauty from a superior object if that object can be enjoyed because of the art.

Kalen Braley

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2007, 03:59:38 PM »
Artistic bunkers would look foolish against the majestic setting at Torrey Pines.  I don't beileve that it is the role of art to steal beauty from a superior object if that object can be enjoyed because of the art.

Its not stealing away though John, its supplementing...

Dave_Miller

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2007, 04:09:04 PM »
Artistic bunkers would look foolish against the majestic setting at Torrey Pines.  I don't beileve that it is the role of art to steal beauty from a superior object if that object can be enjoyed because of the art.

Its not stealing away though John, its supplementing...

Like a tattoo on a beautiful womans ass..

John:
Great analogy ;D
Dave

Kalen Braley

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2007, 04:14:58 PM »
Artistic bunkers would look foolish against the majestic setting at Torrey Pines.  I don't beileve that it is the role of art to steal beauty from a superior object if that object can be enjoyed because of the art.

Its not stealing away though John, its supplementing...

Like a tattoo on a beautiful womans ass..

I was think more along the lines of a hood ornament on a vintage old school cadillac...  ;D

Kalen Braley

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2007, 04:28:02 PM »
I'm not going to argue about art with a guy who has an avitar of some guy blowing Beaker.

Haven't you ever seen the movie "A Christmas Story"??

Sheeez Barney lighten up and get your mind above your waistline...  :P  :D

Pete Lavallee

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2007, 11:47:10 AM »
As Ran would say: "Lost Opportunity."

It came out a bit like Harding Park, good but not great, updated competently but certainly not artistically . . . . .


Looks like someone is a little prejudiced against those who prefer the antiseptic examination.

Tom Doak mentioned just recently that a golf course is fitted into the contours of the land available. If the available land is flat red clay, capped by 6 inches of top soil, what kind of golf course do you expect the site to provide?

Interesting that you would mention the course strictly favors the aerial approach; every green except the short 8th is open in front with a rye grass apron, one would think the World's foremost low baller would find a way to run a shot or two up and on.

This course tests far and sure better than most; remind me again what the US Open should do?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 01:57:44 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Wayne_Kozun

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 02:15:00 PM »
If the idea is to hold the US Open at a public course in Southern California, then yes, I think it's appropriate.  And I believe that's what the USGA had in mind, didn't they?
Why does the public aspect matter?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 02:21:26 PM »
Wayne:

Because the USGA seems to want to hold the Open on public courses every so often.  I personally don't care one way or the other.  But given that's their stance and they want a SoCal version of Bethpage, where the heck else could they have done it?

Rancho Park? - zippo infrastructure, really too short and cramped.

One of the other LA Publics?  No way.

Nothing in San Diego... No way Barona works due to infrastructure and it's too high end now to be a Bethpage equivalent anyway.

Perhaps there are some candidates in Inland Empire and desert, but June weather rules those out....

So where should it go?

TH


TEPaul

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 02:22:29 PM »
"Anyone else have any thoughts on Torrey Pines as a venue for the US Open."

Not I, Davey Boy. As hard as it may be for you to believe I just can't seem to conjure up a single thought (either good or bad) about Torrey Pines as a venue for the US Open.

All I can tell you is the very thought of Torrey Pines (either before or after the recent work) generally makes me feel sort of sleepy.

And now, if you'll please excuse me, I think I'll take a short nap.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007, 02:25:16 PM »
TEP:

That did get a chuckle, as did Lapper's Ambien comment.

But I have to ask - have either of you played the course, any time?

Because if one can sleep through that course, one really does have an odd way of looking at this game.  Hell the views alone are worth the green fee.  

I don't get the Torrey criticism, never have.  Hell it's likely not the best US Open site, but as a golf course to be played and enjoyed?  If one can't enjoy playing there, one really is a golf snob.  And I know many here wear that as a badge of honor, so consider yourself complimented!

 ;D

TEPaul

Re:Guess Brad doesn't like Torrey Pines
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007, 03:03:34 PM »
TomH:

Nah, I don't know the course or remember it well. I think I played it once with my Marine Corps buddies when I was out there in SoCal. But that was over 40 years ago.

But it's funny about some of the odd sensate things that can affect you about a golf course.

Maybe I just don't like the name. Something about the course makes me think of Ms Torrey Spelling, and I can guarantee you that doesn't create a warm and fuzzy feeling for me.

But what I do like about Torrey Pines and the US Open there is Tiger is gonna win it there----there's no doubt about it.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 03:05:40 PM by TEPaul »

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