Women's National Golf & Tennis Club

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Better known today as Glen Head CC.  The official club web site has a wonderful first person account of how the club came to exist today.  This is a wonderful Devereaux Emmett course with some great holes.  It is very much in need of a restoration--especially a significant tree removal program.  Due to a late tee off, the last couple of holes are missing, but will be added sometime in the future.









These two photos show how wonderfully Emmett used the ridge as the greensight




This is the 7th, a downhill 220 yard hole with a very severe dropoff on the right which it shares with the previous par 3

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

[Joe Perches]

It is very much in need of a restoration--especially a significant tree removal program.

Hello Robert.  Thanks for the pictures.

None of the tee shots appear particularly constrained by the trees to me.
There are a number of different species used.  If there's a defect in the trees position/location/visuals, it seems that the tree heights are too similar and perhaps the greens might too frequently be in the shadows of the trees.  What trees do you think should be removed?

[corey miller]

With all due respect Joe, the first picture has in excess of 100 trees that need to be removed.  Most every course in the Met area would benefit from tree removal.

[Jon Wiggett]

Robert,

great pictures. The second green especially is an excellent example of how to make a man made green site look balanced and fit into the landscape. Some of the bunkering looked a bit goofy on some of the last few visible photos but maybe that was just the light.

[Joe Perches]

the first picture has in excess of 100 trees that need to be removed.

I believe the first picture doesn't show 100 trees. Some of the trees separate the practice range from the first hole.  Given the land constraint, I think it's a better visual to hide or obscure the range.

Here's a nice aerial:

Glen Head 1st hole Oblique

Could you be more specific?  Do you think all of the interior trees should be removed?

Most every course in the Met area would benefit from tree removal.

Probably, but deciding on all or some or selected or just a few is a decision for the memberships, and sometimes unfortunately, the planning boards and town councils.

[wsmorrison]

Robert,

George Holland, the historian of the Creek Club was very helpful in providing us what little archival history of the development of the Women's National golf course, now Glen Head.  

While Devereux Emmet was retained in the mid 1920s to manage the property, payroll records record payments to him, there are two large payments to Toomey and Flynn for “additional golf course construction” work.  These represent the only payments made during those years for golf course construction.  The first payment was $7,500.00 made on December 15, 1926 for work done earlier in the month.  A second payment of $7,575.00 was made on April 22, 1927 for work done earlier in the month.  Earlier records show a single large payment for golf course construction work was made out to Devereux Emmet in the amount of $39,000.00 for his golf course construction work in August of 1923.

The nature of Flynn’s work is unknown.  The payments indicate the construction project was a significant one.  It remains to be seen if there were any design plans provided by Flynn.  

If you look at late 1930s and early 1940s aerials of Women's National and nearby St. George's GCC, the styles of the two courses are remarkably different with St. George's looking more like his other courses.  Its hard to say what happened there at this point, but I don't think the complete story is close to being understood.

[corey miller]

How specific do you want me to be on the tree issue on this hole?  

How about on the right remove trees 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,8...47

I count 47 trees up the right through the dogleg.  Cut down 35, the course will still be "wooded" and the better trees can be highlighted.  Even with the range I would do the same thing up the left.  I never said it wasn't the clubs decision but if they want "protection" they would get more if they put up a barrier like exists along the LIE.

Doesn't the bunker on the left look a little funny?  Is there a purpose for it?  

I prefer vistas within a golf course over wall of trees where it is impossible to even identify and particularly speciman tree because they all are obscured.

As far as the local authorities.  tell them you will keep the trees but build houses and see what the answer is.

[tlavin]

Looks like a lovely piece of property.  A lot of nice golf holes, too.  And, of course, I agree that there's enough firewood there for the entire county.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

They have removed some trees for sunlight considerations.  However, as my side view picture of #8 shows, they have kept some of the worst framing trees.  This green is supposed to be a skyline green.  It is impossible to capture with a picture, but it is a reverse redan style green that fits very naturally into the hill.  As for the Flynn connection, I could see how he might have done some of the preliminary work.  Most Emmett courses I've played, begin with a rather benign hole--this is one of the hardest opening holes on Long Island.  

[wsmorrison]

RMD,

Flynn was paid for work that was done in 1926 and 1927; years after the initial payments to Emmet in 1923.  I don't see how the work Flynn was paid had anything to do with preliminary work.  The amount paid to Flynn was nearly half the amount paid to Emmet.  I don't know how that translates to work on the ground, but it would be significant in any case.  Could it be design, construction or a combination?  I don't think anyone knows, but the 1940 bunkering around the entire course is vastly different than other Emmet courses.  One could speculate that the 18-hole course wasn't finished at once and additional work was done to complete the project.  Another scenario is that the existing course was redesigned.  I wish we could get a clearer understanding.  We may never know what the architectural evolution is.

[Chris_Blakely]

The reason the first hole does not strike you as anything like Emmet is because its not an Emmet hole.  The original first green and hole played shorter and to the right of the current first green (closer to the second tee).  If I remember correct from my research, todays first green was done by Tull, but I am not 100% on that.  However, I am certain that the first hole has been significantly changed.

[wsmorrison]

Chris,

Has your research turned up anything at all on Flynn's efforts at Women's National/Glen Head?  What year(s) was Tull on site?

[SPDB]

What about Marion Hollins? What input did she have
into the design?

[JMorgan]

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[TEPaul]

Marion Hollins essentially started the Womens National golf club. Apparently the idea for it came from Hollins.

For those who aren't much aware of Marion Hollins, she was one helluva athlete in more sports than just golf. In golf, she won the US Amateur championship.

For a few months I had the book that contained the origins of the Womens National right here at home. This was not a book written about the club, it was the Womens National GC's own book containing all the papers of its origins. Unfortunately it had nothing about the architecture of the golf course---it only contained reams and reams of legal documents containing incorporation papers and membership rolls and things pertaining to membership.

I grew up in Glen Head, Long Island about five miles from the Womens National and if there is anything I really do recognize its those names contained on those membership rolls of the Womens National.

The fact is just about every single big time name in Long Island from that time is contained in those early membership rolls. It's amazing.

And the other thing that's really amazing to me is just how independent some of those women like Marion Hollins and those on those membership rolls were in relation to golf at that time. They were 1000 percent more independent than women are today in golf.

I don't really know why that was----whether it was because they understood they just weren't very welcome in some other clubs compared to today and for that reason they just went out and did their own independent thing in this way back then.

The fact is the very idea of strictly women's golf courses was so much more prevalent back then compared to today.

Rand Jerris, the USGA Museum/Library director has also said he is just amazed at how much went on in strictly women's golf in America in the 1920s and the 1930s.

In the 1940s the Women's National GC wasn't making it and because of its close connection to The Creek Club it became incorporated into The Creek Club.

I'll have to check my records but at that time I think the combined operation was known as "The Forest Creek Club".

Shortly after that The Creek Club sold the club and course formerly known as The Womens National and I guess at that point it became the Glen Head GC.

Surprisingly, there are some older generation people in Long Island today such as my uncle who are still furious at The Creek Club and some significant members like Irving (or was it Charles?) Pratt for being responsible for dumping the Womens National and selling it. They feel a really wonderful, significant and obvious unique (being just women) club got sold down the river by The Creek Club in Locust Valley.

However, long before that point, I think we all know the real principle of the club, Marion Hollins, had moved to California and was on to other things in golf and architecture.

We can also definitely put C.B. Macdonald on site at the creation of Women's National, even if we can't tell what he contributed to the design of the course.

But according to some, and even some in California, if you can put Macdonald on site in a golf project, even for a day or two, than logically that golf course should probably be attributed to Macdonald architecturally.  

Some of the details of the creation and design of the Womens National are shrouded in time and they're mysterious now. But one thing I think I can say with 100% certainty is that even if he wanted to or tried to, C.B probably never "got it on", so to speak, with Marion Hollins, for a variety of reasons.

Another piece of trivia is Devie Emmet actually served as the secretary to the Womens National for a time.  

By the way, C.B. Macdonald had a rather huge residence in Roslyn, Long Island back then, and Roslyn is right next to Glen Head.

[grandwazo]

I'll chime and say that I've played this course many times over the years and generally enjoyed the round.  The course, even with all the trees has always been in excellent condition, especially the greens which always roll consistent speed wise and true.  

There are at least two holes that I believe are new (maybe 11 and 12), and don't date back to the original design, not sure of the hole numbers but they are on either side of the entrance, a short downhill par 4 that is driveable and a mid length par three with a water hazard down the right side that does not always have water in it.  I think at some point the club sold property to what turned out to be an industrial park, hence the new holes.  There is also a condo development along another perimeter, I believe the land for this also came from the club, but not at the expense of any holes.

The thing that always struck me about the course, even before I knew it's history as the "women's course" for Creek members was that everything seemed "small" in scale, the greens, the bunkers, the fairways and only a few holes, including the 1st and 18th seemed to have any feel with regards to length.  Kind of "dainty", but elegant and at heart, a course for women.  I give the founders and the designers credit for capturing that.

The club has had a resurgence with its membership, adding a beautiful pool facility along with upgrades to its clubhouse...it's sad, but that's what it takes in this market to remain competitive.  On the positive side, the course has not had to take second bill and continues to be cared for in a positive, nuturing manner.

Last point I would make, and I have mentioned it before, it is amazing to me how many courses in this area seem to have "template" holes that don't relate to anything from Scotland, but are defined by the terrain and how many different designers ended up designing the same holes to accomodate this.  Fresh Meadow, Deepdale, Meadowbrook, etc to mention a few, alll have holes that you could not tell which course you were on.  Don't get me wrong, good holes, but interchangeable.

[wsmorrison]

JMorgan,

Do the holes out there today (other than a couple that were apparently redesigned) match the holes on the list you cited?  You say the course was originally designed as two nines and opened with 18 holes in 1924.  What do you think Flynn was paid more than $15,000 to do in 1927/27?

I'll take a close look at Craig's photograph and see if I see if the 1940 iteration of the course corresponds to the holes as you describe.  Can you please tell me where you obtained your information.  Again, I ask you, did you come across anything about Flynn in your research?

[TEPaul]

"The thing that always struck me about the course, even before I knew it's history as the "women's course" for Creek members was that everything seemed "small" in scale, the greens, the bunkers, the fairways and only a few holes, including the 1st and 18th seemed to have any feel with regards to length.  Kind of "dainty", but elegant and at heart, a course for women.  I give the founders and the designers credit for capturing that."

jsiskind:

You should know that there was definitely nothing dainty about Marion Hollins although apparently there was something quite dainty about little Devie Emmet.

As for Macdonald at that point---it's probably hard to say although by the mid 1920s he may've become a bit conflicted. And that may've been the reason he decided to resign from The Creek Club and hie on out into the middle of the Atlantic to his cottage to write his book.

[Wayne_Kozun]

How many Women only golf clubs are there these days?  There is one here in Toronto (Ladies' Golf Club of Toronto) that was designed by Stanley Thompson.

[JMorgan]

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[Chris_Blakely]

JMorgan,

Please reread my post, I never said Tull was involved with this or any other Emmet designs.  However, he was involved in some redesign long after Emmet had passed, I think it was in the last 60's.  But, As for Tull not being involved in any orginal designs of Emmet, the bunkering on Emmet's courses sure became Tull-esque in the early 30's and less in the line of play.

Wayne,

I do not have anything about Flynn's work there.  You do nto have Phillip Young - itis and trying to make every course a Tillinghast (or in this case Flynn) just becuase he used a mower there or removed a bunker??  Just kidding to all involved!!!
All kidding aside, that is a lot of money to be paid back then and I would love to know what he did or did not do?

Chris

[Michael Dugger]

There is a great images in the Hollins biography of one of the holes from this course.

It looks like a drop shot par three, perhaps the hole with the bethpage looking bunker surrounding the green.

I always really liked that picture.  I have hoped someone would build something similar on a new course.

[wsmorrison]

I'll ask Craig Disher if I can post his 1940 aerial of the course.  I don't know the routing progression but I am guessing that the 6th hole was not a short par 3.  There is no Principal's Nose bunker complex either.  I do know that the 1st looked nothing like the current 7th at Walton Heath.  I guess it would have to be the 7th on the New Course because the 7th on the Old Course at Walton Heath is a par 3.  However, maybe the routing progression was changed.  I haven't had a chance to study the old photograph in depth with Hollins's descriptions nor compare the 1940 aerial with a modern one.  But I'll try.

[JMorgan]

Former Walton Heath Old #7 was a short par 5.