Rees On Bethpage Et Al

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Your first four posts on this thread combined with the numerous posts you made on other Rees related threads was the basis for my comment.

You may recall how you alleged that the members at Hollywood were dissatisfied that they didn't get the Travis course restored, which was completely inaccurate.

You also made previous comments on Baltusrol and Rees.

I don't think connecting the dots is too difficult in this case.

I've also forgotten, exactly how many times have you played
ATLANTIC, HOLLYWOOD AND BETHPAGE ?

John Bernhardt,

I understand your position.

Dealing with individual clubs is a difficult matter, internally and externally.  The notion of giving lessor known names an opportunity isn't quite what it seems.

It's not like you would be giving them an opportunity to be creative, they would be there to retain the style of the original architect.

Dismissing architects who have a proven track record at performing that function, and retaining a lessor known, might never get past the committee level, let alone the membership.

I also wouldn't be so sure that the architects you previously mentioned wouldn't try to put their perspective into the golf course, to the detriment of the golf course.

No one is perfect.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Please take another look at my 6/16/9:48pm post on this thread and try to answer it!

[GeoffreyC]

Shivas-  The answer does not speak for itself.  Bethpage Black before any work was done to it or before it held an Open was 7019 yard (if memory serves me correctly) par 71 with long forced carries using old equipment.  In fact, one forced carry over the sahara bunker was eliminated in the open.  Played as a par 5 from the back tee 40 yards behind and to the right of the tee used, #7 offered another Tillinghast designed visually intimidating forced carry. Interestingly, many of these carries are diagonal and offer easier routes albeit with more difficult shots required following the easier route.  #7 is a good example as is the carry on #4.  Go to the favored right side and the carry over the cross bunker is much longer and more challenging. Go left off the tee on #9 and the carry is longer but the view to the green is better and from a flatter stance. However, we've always had to deal with the uphill approach to 15, a carry over the cross bunker on #12 and the barranca on #9.  There are some forward tees that permit the course to play at 6500 yards but for expert players, the Black was always a bear.  The new equipment only makes it easier.

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

If you knew how Tillie felt about the so-called "Championship golf course" (a concept he helped to create and was one of the concept's biggest advocates) he would probably have just loved the way Bethpage was set up and how it played!

Let's put it this way, in his concept of the "Championship course" he could get into some real high demand designs and playabilities.

When another designer like J.H. Taylor tried to tell him (their dialogue is in writing apparently) that would be torture for normal golfers, Tillinghast told him in no uncertain terms that it wasn't for normal golfers and normal golfers could jolly-well do one of two things! Either stay away from the course or get a lot better!!

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

To put the so-called "Championship course" (a course like Bethpage Black) in another light, us architectural analysts should try to understand something about them that's quite fundamental and was considered fundamental in the eyes and minds of the architects that built them!

That is that they were created to be and considered to be by those architects that built them to be close examinations and tests of a whole variety of high level shot making skills. They could be and were actually one dimensionally demanding of all those skills to a degree and were intended to be!

We tend far too often to lay an all encompassing "strategic" veneer over all golf architecture in the sense that there should be different strategies and options all designed to result in the same potential result or score for every level or even for the spectrum of so-called good or par golfers!

That's just not the way some of the early architects viewed the true championship design. There could be and were other options and strategies than the high demand ones but always with the expectation of dropping shots!

There's a consistency of opinion from those early architects that makes this obvious! What Tillinghast said to J. H. Taylor is on record and it's of no real difference than Crump's response to a hacker at early Pine Valley who when playing with Crump said: "George, this course is so difficult somebody like me could actually get hurt out here!" Crump turned to him and said; "Now you've got it!"

It seems to a large degree too that the idea and creation of the so-called "Championship course" may have emanated out of the "Philadelphia" or "Pennsylvania" schools of architecture!

The 5-6 members of those schools, Crump, Wilson, Flynn, Tillinghast, Fownes and maybe even Thomas were all advocates of that "Championship" style. Maybe they weren't everywhere but when they decided to do it they most definitely were!

We may not agree with it but at the very least we should understand what it was and the distinctions of that type of design from other types and styles.

So far I don't see too many architectural analysts doing that or making those distinctions. We really shouldn't even try to lay on it something like TOC's ultra strategic principles because many of those "championship" courses were a fundamental departure from even that!

They were to a large degree maybe even an American architectural invention and creation and they were not very well received by many of the European architects of that time!

They were what they were and intended to be such and it's interesting that so many of them are still so well respected. Even Ross got into the concept a few times;

They were courses like Pine Valley, Merion, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Pinehurst #2, Baltusrol, Bethpage, Winged Foot, the "C" nine at Huntingdon Valley, Aronomink etc etc!

Some say they aren't and weren't ideal because in many cases they didn't accomodate every level of golfer! The point that so many seem to miss is that they really were never supposed to accomodate every level of golfer at least not the way we think of accomodating every level of golfer!

They were called "Championship" courses for a reason! That's primarily what they were designed for--championship golf and golfers!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
I just re-read my four posts and I didn't mention the membership of Hollywood or Baltusrol, nor have I ever mentioned the membership of those clubs being disatisfied. I don't know what kind of dots (or microdots) you are connecting, but they aren't based in reality. You really shouldn't make accusations unless you can document them - a good example of documentation would be my Hollywood thread.

I've never commented on the quality of Atlantic, Bethpage or Hollywood, so what is your point.

I don't mind being criticized for comments I have made, but I'm not really excited about being criticized for things I've never said or even 'alleged'.  I would appreciate it if you would edit me out of or correct your post of 6/14 -- no hard feelings.  

Back to the architecture!

[TEPaul]

TomM and Pat:

No need to say; "Now back to architecture."

Your dialogues are all about architecture--they're all about accuracy in architecture!

Keep them going! After a while all kinds of rumors, inaccuracies and misperceptions are going to start to get corrected and that can never be a bad thing--that's for sure!

[GeoffreyC]

Tom- I believe it was me who mentioned Quaker Ridge and Baltusrol members in the context of you statement that Winged Foot members would revolt if Rees altered their bunkers.

I pointed out that Rees did most of the bunkers at QR and Baltusrol and there was as far as I know of no revolt by the members of those clubs.  You subsequently correctly pointed out that there was in fact no basis for your revolt comment and it was only your opinion that the WF members would revolt.  You said earlier today that you are entitled to this opinion because you played WF. That makes a lot of sense  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Geoffrey
As you know Rees Jones sent the construction crew to WF before rebuilding the bunkers at Bethpage - he has stated that he and David Fay decided WF's bunkers would be the model for Bethpage's completely new greenside bunkering. In an attempt to illustrate those bunkers turned out looking nothing like WF's, I said that if he were hired to rebuild WF's bunkers and they turned out like these there would be a revolt. Another words it was a hypothetical. No need to defend his work at Baltusrol or Quaker Ridge (unless his model for those courses were Ridgewood and SFGC), it was a comment comparing the WF inspired bunkers at Bethapge to the real WF bunkers.

I agree it is rediculous to bring up playing WF as the entitlement of that particular opinion - that was in response to Pat's comment. That is an opinion anyone with decent vision - who has seen either course on TV or in photographs -could make.

[GeoffreyC]

Tom

Fair enough.  In fact, I'm NOT defending the work at QR or Baltusrol only stating that I know of no revolts.  I still and always have thought that the absolute model for any Tillinghast restoration is Fenway GC.  They did it properly as a true sensitive restoration.  Now we can only hope for some tree disease over the winter in Scarsdale.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba and NONE,

The course with bunker shapes almost identical to Bethpage...
RIDGEWOOD.

YEP, capes, bays, large scale, small scale, amoebas, you name it, twenty seven (27) holes of bunkers that are similar if not congruent to the bunkers at Bethpage.

Okay, for those of you who flunked geometry, replace,
"similar if not congruent" with almost identical.

RIDGEWOOD, AWT, 1927.  
Or, are we now to learn that Burbeck or someone else did those bunkers.  Or is WF the only course where one can truely study AWT's bunkers.

Anyone who has played Ridgewood can see the tremendous similarity in the bunkers, large and small.

And, RIDGEWOOD has retained a terrific architect to preserve and restore their golf course, to the extent,
THE MEMBERS PERMIT.

Sorry to burst your anti-Rees bunkering bubble, fellas

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You must not have read a previous post I made.

I said that I was going to be with some of the people from TGC and would obtain a copy of the taped interview to determine exactly what Rees said.  

Once we have the FACTS, we can proceed, unless you think it's best to proceed without the facts.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

What in God's Green Earth would ever lead you to suspect that I'd be interested in proceeding without the FACTS?

By the way Pat, do you have any idea what the FACTS are behind who designed Shinnecock?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It doesn't matter who designed it, Rees will be blamed for something about it, perhaps just driving by it on his way to NGLA and Atlantic.  

This is Bethpage, Shinnecock is down the road.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I know where it is--but what are the FACTS?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
The facts never stopped you before. Here's a link to Ridgewood, I would think one Tillie's most interesting bunker displays. Do you think the Bethpage bunkers look like these? I don't see a single whale's tail or crab-like bunker.

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/printimage.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1444&Y=11331&Z=18&W=2

How do you explain the crew studying WF and then producing Ridgewood - allegedly? (Aren't these the same guys who 'restored' Merion?) What was wrong with emulating Bethpage?

Where did he drive the crew when they were 'restoring' Hollywood?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You can either take the cutoff before getting to Shinnecock, to Sebonic, make a left and proceed to NGLA, or cut through Shinnecock to Sebonic make a left and proceed to NGLA, or
you can stay on 27 east until you come to scuttlehole road, make a left and about two miles further make a left into Atlantic.

But, if you come by helicopter or seaplane, don't follow these directions.

PS.  Watch out, the town doesn't allow left turns at certain times, and the police patrol the cutoff, looking for the likes of you and other traffic and architectual violators.

The police chief's name is William Flynn, who claims his descendants came to work on the east end and left offspring in abundance, his deputy, Richard Wilson, makes a similar claim
I don't know what's gotten Toomey.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I'm tiring of this bickering!

All of you put your knowledge on the table. It is time for an assignment!!!! Call it a far-fetched one if you will, but it is going to require all of the particpants to do a little work.

Both sides--come up with a precise and detailed analysis of some/all/any Tillinghast bunkers from any of Tillinghast course in the world (or Long Island, since it's a world unto itself!:))and the same for any Rees Jones bunkers from any of his works. I want to hear everything you like about them and everything you don't, as well as what the constitutes the entire bunker complex in the scheme of things (Its ability to mix and mingle with its placement as well as the materials which it is made from.)

In other words--EVERY ASPECT OF THE BUNKER COMPLEX IN IT'S FULLEST.

This is your assignment for all of you reading this post. I want you to describe EXACTLY what you like and dislike about every detail and aspect.

If you would like to post pictures to back up your points, feel free to email them to me and I will do the rest.

[Gib_Papazian]

Hey guys, just an observation:

Why did those bunkers at Bethpage look out of proportion to the size of the putting surfaces? I could not tell from televsion and know better than to make an assumption.

It sort of looked like a bunch of ovals (of various sizes) juxtaposed next to all these cape & bay bunkers.

How does it look on the ground? Too big? Just right?

I'm curious so I really want to know.

Here is another hypothetical question: although it will not be too hypothetical in my case in September.

If you have one afternoon to play golf in that area, is  Bethpage worth enduring a long round? Should I trade it for a day at Creek or Piping Rock or North Shore?

My schedule is going to be tight next time before I go to Rhode Island, so is it a MUST SEE?

[TEPaul]

OK Pat, you're using roads and cars and helicopters and every manner of diversionary tactic to avoid answering my question of who designed present day Shinnecock! You could say you just don't know!

William Flynn is the police chief out there is he? How apropos! I'm going to make every illegal turn until he nails me and then tell him Pat Mucci told me to do it and that you're spreading the rumor (disguised as fact) that either Damon Pascusso or Flynn's former renegade foreman Dick Wilson designed Shinnecock!

At the very least that might take five minutes off my weekend jail sentence and add a few days onto your eventual jail sentence!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Rees and I have a get out of jail free card  

But...... we will visit you on our way to play golf

Let's not Hijack the thread, let's stick to Bethpage.

You can start a thread on Shinnecock if you'd like.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood's overhead of Ridgewood seems not to be working at the moment.  This one might be better, albeit in black and white.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?zoom=9&mapdata=cbPRZSKSHGS6WQ2ZPByh454GivuvC%2bXA7T%2b%2bQk3jlcUmd8m%2fMA639HYbEeCN2D2Bb6z8aP4ajMYoXlFgYvuEJoA3YCTyf89SWxJq
MkyVwPeKNcbpg0S%2bwx2FWmDdQw1aNUm06YFUXzGZrPAt4fFYOZ7f11vqvMGDclukvNL7preSPFX%2f
TIa%2f24ys%2b%2bw8rSyDIdslS%2bGdCm4fS9JVwMcLawY9APJfjWWmMzuYu1TiZjuCun7Md98vq19O
xUy1dAr0xnPhejUIDBIzqBFytBUhbXH3q0RZ37KV07Yg8qB0Mug1%2fjLWSnBiFM%2f7UhP6exKG%2f%
2f34WbTwEAfi8zPY9bZYhffszK%2bKH7n5mXv2suq9XCg%3d

Ok, I can see some squiggly shapes down there, and having played Ridgewood last fall, I can see where some of the stylized features appear, although nothing quite as gaudy as some of the Bethpage work.  

But, time for a quick quiz...

Guess who "restored" the bunkers at Ridgewood in 1988??    

[GeoffreyC]

Gib

By all means take a day to play Bethpage in September.  I will be happy to join you.  What you will find is Tillinghasts' single most remarkable routing with virtually all playing angles intact. You've seen those other courses before anyway.

To answer your other question-  The bunkers WERE HUGE and they still are huge.  The aerial views do not really portray an accurate impression of the visuals on the ground.  I think Paul Turner said it best in a previous post.  They are however visually intimidating hazards on the ground.  One thing you realize when you pick a line of play is that you must strike the ball solidly or you will be left with a LONG bunker shot.

[Mike_Cirba]

By the way, I have no idea why my comments are being lumped into a generalization called "Rees-bashing".  :-/

It was only about two weeks ago, where I believe I called his Olde Kinderhook course "excellent", and also mentioned that Huntsville is "very good".  

I reserve the right to call 'em as I see 'em, pro or con, however, and if time permits today, I'll try to answer Tommy's question in detail.    

[TEPaul]

OK, Pat, I won't hijack this Bethpage thread. Out of interest, though, who do you think designed the Black?

I must tell you I've just run across a box that appeared to have been collecting dust for 70 years! In it are beautiful topo routings and design drawings of all the holes of Bethpage including the Black.

Guess whose signature is on all those drawings? Mrs. Joseph Burbeck!! What do you think of them apples? Do you wonder any longer why Joseph Burbeck never said anything? Who the hell would've believed him--and doesn't this just completely explain the "We" he referred to? Do you have any remaining doubt why Mrs. Burbeck was so pissed at A.W. Tillinghast? Apparently the flask-wielding sot didn't even know who he was actually working with!