Southern Pines

[Cliff Hamm]

Will be playing UNC Finley, Tobacco Road and Southern Pines in early October.  I dk of any outstanding issues at Finley or TR.  If there are would welcome comments.

My understanding is that Southern Pines had deteriorated but was recently taken over by a new mgt. company and conditions are improved.  Has anyone played there recently and care to comment on their experience/conditions?  Thanks

[Jason Tetterton]

Southern Pines is in the best shape that I've seen in many years.  I was out there three days over Labor Day weekend.  

[Patrick Kiser]

Cliff,

Do a search.  Recently there was a great post with loads of pics and details about Southern Pines.

Looks in great shape.  They did a lot to get it shape for the U.S. Women's I think.  Ross would approve I think  

Will be playing UNC Finley, Tobacco Road and Southern Pines in early October.  I dk of any outstanding issues at Finley or TR.  If there are would welcome comments.

My understanding is that Southern Pines had deteriorated but was recently taken over by a new mgt. company and conditions are improved.  Has anyone played there recently and care to comment on their experience/conditions?  Thanks

[Mark Bourgeois]

Did you know that according to Richard Mandell there is not one shred of evidence Donald Ross designed this course? He never talked about it (although that may be down to his not wishing to bring up designing a competitor to the Tufts family's resort), nor is there a plan, contract or anything else with his name / signature on it (although that may be down to a clubhouse fire several decades ago).

Mark

[michael_j_fay]

Recently proof of Ross's involvement at SPGC has been unearthed.

Seems the course (original 18) was designed by Ross in 1907. The course was listed on his business card and there are articles in the local newspaper that a Tournament was played there in 1908.

Because of the early date and the direct involvement by Ross there are no drawings or other evidence.

Meanwhile the course is in very good condition. The ball can be played down and the greens are in as good shape as any in the Sandhills.

[Cliff Hamm]

Thanks for the responses.  Southern Pines looks to be a great value.  

Other than for historical interest does it matter if Ross designed it?  Would the course be held in as high esteem if designed by John Doe?  Suspect not, but should it really matter who the architect is?  Shouldn't courses be judged on their merits, not on their pedigree?

[Steve Lang]

 

one would appreaciate SPCC regardless of gca history..

if you play 30 or so courses in the area there unknowing.. you'd definitely go back to SPCC on a return trip..

[Mike_Cirba]

Recently proof of Ross's involvement at SPGC has been unearthed.

Seems the course (original 18) was designed by Ross in 1907. The course was listed on his business card and there are articles in the local newspaper that a Tournament was played there in 1908.

Because of the early date and the direct involvement by Ross there are no drawings or other evidence.

Meanwhile the course is in very good condition. The ball can be played down and the greens are in as good shape as any in the Sandhills.

Michael,

Good to hear about the documentation on SP.   It's really a tremendous course.  

If you ever come across anything on Pocono Manor, please let me know.   As you are aware, they've claimed to have some Ross heritage, but I can't find a scrap of hard evidence.

[michael_j_fay]

Mike:

I made a stop at Pocono Manor earlier this summer because it has been on our list.

There are quite a few Ross style features in the greens and fill pads. The routing could be Ross.

The lack of bunkering is certainly not Ross. The few bunkers that are there are not Ross in style or placement. The mounds that are everywhere resemble the mounds that Ross produced on most courses to cover rocks and stumps from the property, but I have never seen mounds in such great number.

Buck Hill Falls which is nearby is much more Ross style than Pocono and although there are mounds they are not nearly as plentiful. The terrain is quite similar.

To answer your question, I have no written historical proof. Beyond that I am not convinced that Ross worked the property.

[wsmorrison]

While I know that Michael Fay is not trying to implicate that Pocono Manor's East Course is a Donald Ross design, I think it is worth saying that the look and and style of features is a very low standard to consider when looking at attributions.  Conclusions based on such (and I do not imply that Michael has done so) can lead to errors.  Concord CC (formerly Brinton Lake Club) was thought by knowledgeable golf course architects to be a Ross based on look and style before we found convincing archival evidence (drawings) to the contrary.  It is a Flynn design.  We have Flynn drawings of the course and it was built exactly as the plans depicted.  

Michael, has the Ross Society done anything at all to correct the mis-attribution of Sewells Point (formerly Norfolk CC) as a Ross course?  I know they have Ross's portrait hanging in the clubhouse.  I also know without a doubt that the current course is Flynn.  Flynn's architectural plans and early aerial photographs (courtesy of Craig Disher) leave no doubt.  I think the club had two courses at one time (early scorecards seem to indicate that) and maybe the other was a Ross course (9 holes, if I recall correctly).  The currently played course is a Flynn.  Should the Ross society make a determination or do you stay out of such matters?

[Richard_Mandell]

The brilliance of Southern Pines Country Club should not be affected by who designed the course, Donald Ross or otherwise.  But, regarding evidence that was unearthed on whether Ross did it or not, let me clarify what that evidence was.  Found in the archives recently (in a glass display case in the wide open where I never thought to look?) is a small pamphlet from Ross's office from the late twenties that lists all of Donald Ross's courses to date.  It includes 36 holes at Southern Pines CC.  There is no year associated with it, though, and there is no evidence linking Ross to SPCC in the mention elsewhere about a tournament being held there in 1908 either.

There were never 36 holes at SPCC open for play, although the aerial photo found in my book from 1939 shows 27 holes and other areas cleared (possibly for golf holes).  The February 18, 1926 Pinehurst Outlook announced plans for a new 18 hole course, eighteen more "mini" holes, and a new clubhouse to be drawn up by Irving Johnson (page 127).  I am guessing that this is what is referenced in Ross's pamphlet.

Odds are, Donald Ross did design Southern Pines Country Club.  It is not my intention to debunk this, I just haven't found anything that really proves it without a doubt.  Personally, I will accept the findings in his pamphlet, while continuing to search for more concrete evidence.  

Now for the shameless plug:

"For more on this fascinating subject and for all lovers of golf architecture, golf, life and anything else, one must purchase the new book,

Pinehurst ~ Home of American Golf (The Evolution of a Legend).

The best opportunity to purchase a signed copy of this book is to visit www.golf-architecture.com and click on the book link"

[Mark Bourgeois]

Richard,

I have found your book highly informative and entertaining!

Oh, while we have you, can you elaborate on your comments regarding Ross's intention for the grass surrounding #2's greens to be longer and not shaved?

Mark

[Richard_Mandell]

That came directly from Peter Tufts, who spent a lot of time with Ross in the thirties and forties and was Ross' Godchild.  There are also some random references in his writings regarding chipping as well.  

Also, if you think about his experiences at the time and his desire to replicate conditions in his native Scotland, then one would understand that shaved surrounds were not achieved in Scotland (nor America) back then.  It is one of those examples of referring back to playing conditions of his era.  There was no precedence of shaving the surrounds of greens complexes to the point that they are shaved today, that I know of.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Very interesting. Whose decision was it? I enjoy playing it with shaved surrounds. For me, I think it's more fun that way. I think it is more difficult, too; do you?

I do like the links connection there.

What I don't get is why this is so unique, at least in America. Why haven't / didn't other courses shave their surrounds? What would that do to difficulty and fun if they did that instead of maintaining rough?

(I can tell you on my home course it would turn some holes into terrors, but make others easier. Extrapolating from my home course, the problem today is that many courses are designed FOR rough. Yuck.)

Some courses with boot camp cuts definitely would play funky and different. You'd get some really fun "around the bowl" type shots. (Barnbougle Dunes could be the poster child among modern courses for this, and those shots are some of the most fun you will play on any course, anywhere.)

It would be cool to see some try - and not just shave a collection area here or there.

Mark

[Richard_Mandell]

Mark:

I am guessing that it wasn't one conscious decision, but more of an evolution.  In other words, as grasses and mowing equipment improved over the years, they began experimenting more and pushing the envelope.  By the nineties, it became more of a conscious effort to make it standard.  

I agree that it is more fun (to a point) and much better than rough.  I think more people are moving toward this idea and have been for the last ten years or so.  It was at Congressional in 1997 that the USGA first started to mow down some areas instead of their MO of knee-deep rough next to the collar and beyond.

If more courses did shave surrounds, there would not necessarily be a different difficulty, but more of a challenge factor. Rough extrapolation takes brute strength, not a mental challenge.  Shaving the surrounds takes creativity and thought into consideration and if the talent is there, one will succeed.

But this can be taken to an extreme the other way as well.  If one shaves down the surrounds too much, then it is impossible to respond without anything but a putter (possibly).  So you end up at opposite ends of the spectrum:  wedge blasting out of rough vs. putting up slopes.  There is no middle ground or gray area.

it is the gray area that makes the challenges of golf so fun.  The variety of clubs that can accomplish the same task can wreak havoc on the psyche more so than the black and white choices of wedge vs. putter.

[Richard_Mandell]

One other thought that just occurred to me about mowing down the edges is that a lot of that began to happen around the sixties to speed up mowing efficiencies and the guy who mowed the tees and fairways began to mow a pass or two around the greens just to speed up things.  From there, it probably expanded and became standard practice.  That way, there was less mowing to be done by the guy with the rough mower.

[Craig Disher]

There are 3 mentions of SPCC in the American Golfer that state that 36 holes were open in the early 30s. The Dec 1932 issue says that "... only a short step removed [from Mid-Pines and Pine Needles] is Southern Pines with its own two eighteen-hole courses." The Dec 1933 and 1934 issues say nearly the same thing. No mention of Donald Ross. AG also has a couple photos of golfers at SPCC but they show no detail of the course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Found in the archives recently (in a glass display case in the wide open where I never thought to look?) is a small pamphlet from Ross's office from the late twenties that lists all of Donald Ross's courses to date.  

Hi Richard,

That's quite the find!  Is there an exact year on the pamphlet?

I'm extremely curious if Pocono Manor is listed?

Thanks!

[hhuffines]

Rich,

I wonder if there is a listing of his courses prior to 1911?

Thanks!

Hart Huffines

[Dave Maberry]

Mike,
 Here's a recent listing from Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120195924088&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002
This could provide some info on PM from 1930's.
Dave

[Craig Disher]

Thanks to the Royal Canadian Golf Association I've a copy of a 1937 article from Canadian Golfer on the demise of sand greens that refers in some detail to Southern Pines CC. The first page has a picture of the 1st green and given the topography, it looks like it's in the same location as the current 1st. SPCC still had sand greens - the only course in the area to still use them. They would be grassed next year - hence the article on playing them perhaps for the last time.

There's a little bit on the architecture. After noting that it wasn't possible to stop a ball on the greens with backspin, "...the golf architects, of course, have used a different technique to protect the pin. The surfaces are set on shelves, or knolls, or behind hills, making it necessary to place one's approaches accurately. A minimum of bunkers are placed in the vicinity of the greens allowing more opportunity for run up chips. On such courses, great emphasis is placed on this department.  The actual sand surfaces are less than half the size of our Canadian greens, and are quite flat, usually with a slight general tilt. Due to their size, they are generally round with the pin kept close to the centre. They are absolutely consistent and it is possible to "tune" one's shots to them in a short time."

The surface of the greens was very firm, close to that of a en-tout-cas tennis court - pretty firm if anything like today's clay courts.

Unfortunately, no mention of Ross in this article either.

[Richard_Mandell]

Mike and Hart:

I vaguely recall the year being late twenties, but the listing of courses (I don't recall) wasn't broken down in years.  Can't tell you about Pocono Manor either.  Someone at the archives could answer those questions, just remind them of the brochure in the glass case, 910-295-3642.

Interesting that these articles about SPCC never mention Ross.  I would think they would, wouldn't you guys?  Either Ross wan't connected or he was not very recognized at that point in his career.  Another possibility is that maybe back then they didn't mention Architects like they do today.

[Craig Disher]

If SPCC was private - compared to Pinehurst and Mid-Pines which  were primarily resorts and could trade on their association with Ross - the architect may have been of less importance to the writers than the competitions and membership roll.

A photo of the SP clubhouse in 1919 shows that it was a very comfortable club heading into the 1920s. Although it's hard to detect, I think the 1940 aerial shows that the clubhouse still existed then, approximately between the current clubhouse and the Elks Lodge.

[Dave Maberry]

I'm currently trying to obtain copy of booklet from Ebay buyer. This will be a 1930 listing from Ross. It will be interesting to see if Pocono Manor or Southern Pines is listed.
Dave

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm currently trying to obtain copy of booklet from Ebay buyer. This will be a 1930 listing from Ross. It will be interesting to see if Pocono Manor or Southern Pines is listed.
Dave

Dave,

Southern Pines evidently is listed as 36 holes by Ross, and I also have seen evidence indicating that it was built in 1906 and 1909, making it among his earliest courses.

My query to the fellow who found the booklet about Pocono Manor has gone unanswered to date.

For what it sold for on Ebay, $395 I believe, it seems it would have had more value to just hold onto it as he seems a true Rossophile, but I don't know his particular situation.   It just seems to me to be worth a whole lot more in terms of intrinsic and historical value.