East Lake's Bentgrass Greens

[Gary Daughters]

Atlanta paper indicates East Lake's greens have suffered heat wave damage.  Won't be in optiminal shape for the climax of the inaugural FedEx cup.
 
Link:

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/sports/stories/2007/09/06/glfgreens_0907.html

Could no one have seen this as at least a possibility?  It does get hot down here in summer.

[KBanks]

Gary,

I have it on pretty good authority that East Lake has decided to convert from bent to an ultra dwarf bermuda. I also understand that Atlanta Athletic Club is doing the same, no doubt in anticipation of the PGA in a few years.

Once these two leading clubs make the conversion, I expect we will see a number of other courses in the area follow suit.

It should be a good thing if it results in more firmness in the greens themselves and, ultimately, "through the green".

My expert agronomist tells me that undue softness in bent greens in the SE at this time of year is not due to overwatering. Rather, it results from the root system essentially shutting down, which creates a gel-like substructure. Poor playing conditions result.

Ken

[Gary Daughters]

Good info, Ken.

I thought the Cink quote was interesting.. "the days of the stigma against bermuda greens are over."

(Also interesting is the Finchem quote that sounds a little like CYA.)

Our public courses seem to be leading the way in converting to Champion, though many are converting not from bent but from other strains of bermuda.

[Michael Christensen]

what a surprise, something else overlooked by the tour!!!  it does get hot in the south during the summer...I guess they didn't realize it.

[G Jones]

As a member at East Lake when I lived in Atlanta in 2005 and 2006, I can tell you that the greens are normally great at this time of the year (and not overly soft either). But anywhere where you can have a heat wave of 100+F for 7 straight days you're going to have problems when you get the hottest month in 25 years!

They have just been really (or is that real) unlucky with this unusual summer.

[A.G._Crockett]

As an Atl resident/golfer, I found the article very interesting.  I would be really, really shocked if East Lake converted to Champion, as the article indicated that they would, but it is a great surface, no doubt.

I know the greens will be softer than the Tour or the club would like; August was just absolutely brutal, and it took a LOT of water to keep bent alive here.  Very, very unusual to say the least, and up until then, the bent greens around here were the best I can ever remember them being late in the summer.

Even now, most courses have good putting surfaces, because fungus wasn't a problem this year.  But they are soft, and that may make scores at East Lake very, very low.

[Mike_Young]

Bentgrass has never been meant for the SE US but it has been expected on the better courses and supts learned how to grow it.....I think EL will be an ultra dwarf by this time next year as will many other ATL area courses.....and the supts will become better and better at growing the new bermudas.....it allows a supt to grow grass instead of just trying to keep grass....
BUT the most interesting segment of this whole deal is how it shows that the soil greens can perform just as well as USGA greens.  EL is USGA spec with subair....the new strains of bermuda fair better with a higer soil content than bent and work on many of the old push ups without converting to USGA.....

[Chris Cupit]

I copied my post from the FedEx Greens thread since I was talking about EL:

I am a little hesitant to weigh in about courses that "lost" their greens since one of our illustrious posters on this site had his partner make some erroneous comments about my course having "lost" its greens  (not even close to true--East Lake would kill for my greens).  But since I know this firsthand and have been on site (unlike the guy who made comments about my course), here it goes:

Not sure about the other FedEx greens but Atlanta's East Lake is really struggling and to some degree anyone with any golf knowledge who thought bent grass in Mid September has any good chance of being in good shape should have known better.

the greens at East Lake are struggling.  Here is what I KNOW:
1.  Atlanta had almost 30 days of no rain and set a record for heat with 9 days above 100 and the highest August temperatures EVER recorded.
2.  East Lake had even more extreme heat thanks to the "heat effect" of being in the city.
3.  As of yesterday, Medalist Golf was sodding bermuda around greens!  Edges of greens that had simply died were cut out and the bermuda fringe areas were "expanded".
4.  A week or so ago in a fairly desperate move to get soil temps down, pallets of ice were used on at least one green to cool them down!

What I've HEARD:
1.  The super had wanted to put fans around the greens early in August and the GM resisted this move.  There are now generators and four fans on many greens but unfortunately, it's too little too late.  
2.  They are using green topdressing sand and paint to try and mask the dead spots for TV.
3.  The greens were aerated (from pics I saw) in order to try and get some air to the roots and help with gas exchange--I think this will help but it will also soften them up--they will not be firm, fast or smooth.
4.  They will recover a little by next week but I know the crew feels terrible about what happened.
5.  Small consolation but the rest of the course is in perfect shape.

I am certain they will change over to Bermuda for next year.  In order to have firm, fast greens in Atlanta the second week in September, bermuda is the choice.  They are talking about mini verde not the Champion but the new ultra dwarf bermudas are fantastic.  

I am still a bentrgrass proponent for Atlanta in general but for a specific situation like this, bermuda is a "no brainer".

[paul cowley]

Chris....we have done great with Mini Verdi over in Greenwood.
Good cold tolerance and a great dormant putting surface with an occasional rolling [and a little paint].....and no transition.

I agree with Mike and feel Bermuda's time has come.

I have been cringing the past 4 or 5 years when the owner or super insists on bent greens.

What will make some notice is that certain Paspalum varieties are more cold tolerant than some of the more cold tolerant Bermudas....think about that for a future

[Chris Cupit]

Paul,

I am not anti-bermuda at all.  The new ultra dwarfs are unreal and this summer in Atlanta made it a perfect match for this area.

I am only real familiar with Atlanta and the main point I have is that in Atlanta, there is no "silver bullet" of grasses.  All grasses will have issues and to some degree it's a matter of "picking your poison".

If I owned a course and I wanted very firm, fast conditions for early to mid September I'd pick bermuda for my greens.  (I actually prefer bermuda fairways to the older zoysias becaiuse of the "stickiness" of the older zoysias although the new zoysias (diamond for example) has such a fine turf blade I might change my mind).

Anyway bermuda greens in Atlanta have different issues--covers/tarps needed at night when temps approach 27.  Those are big tarps if anyone has ever used them--you need 4-5 guys per green putting on tarps after play winds up on a winter day--very labor expensive and it could get expensive if we have a cold winter.

Despite those precations, winter kill for bermuda is a very real issue in Atlanta.  Bent grass of course has its fungal/diesese issues of course but again, no grass is without its issues.

There is also a very specific regimine/protocol for bermuda that needs to be followed and there are not a lot of courses that have made the switch (yet) so supers in Atlanta are still used to bent greens/issues.

I think you will see clubs without access to huge capital dollars and daily fees that can't afford a year long shut down transition to bermuda from bent.  Trophy Club in Atlanta just did it and I will not be shocked to see RiverPines do it one day as well.  The driver there will be the ability to re-open for play ASAP as much as anything else such as turf quality.

I did consider bermuda but at my course we felt bermuda growth really doesn't begin until June 1 and usually lasts until the second hard frost which can be at the end of September sometimes.  Anyway, my busy season is really from September 1 through June 30 when I think bent grass can do exceptionally well in north Atlanta. And I do think great bent is better than great bermuda.

From June 15 to October 1 Bermuda is in its prime but I don't think it is a "no brainer" for either grass.  

Question:  Is the paspallum related in any way to "Dallas grass"?  If it is, then that has got to be some of the hardiest stuff around!  Isn't it very salt tolerant and used a lot in ocean side situations?

2nd Question:  How do you compare mini verde to Champion--I heard EL is looking at mini verde despite almost everyone in ATL going Champion?

[jim_lewis]

Paul:

I played your Patriots GC in Ninety Six last year and was very impressed. The mini verde greens were remarkable, the best I think I have ever seen south of Pinehurst. They rolled great, had good speed, and played very firm. I don't understand why more clubs don't use it. There must be sone disadvantage that I don't understand.

Jim Lewis

[Matt_Cohn]

So would they overseed them in the winter?

[Anthony_Nysse]

A "little bird' called me last night about the exact subject. The greens will be converted to champion between now and next year, hence the reason for the test green.
  I have also heard that they have cancelled the pro-am because the potential for all the extra wear and tear. Lastly, because the bentgrass on the nursery is scarce, they are sodding some of the greens cleanups with champion to make sure that they have a green color for TV.
  Mike-I can't see why they would overseed the new greens-The caddies and their former second assistant said there isn't much golf during the winter months.
 Chris-EL test plots and chipping green were sprigged with Champion and upon sitting next to their Asst Supt at the GCSAA shop in California, that is what he commented to if they were to change.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Gary Daughters]

There's more.  Or, upon further review, as Tony was saying...

"Conditions of the greens at East Lake Golf Club have reached such a critical point that officials may not allow players on the course until the first round of The Tour Championship on Thursday."

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/stories/2007/09/08/tourgreens_0909.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab

[A.G._Crockett]

The thought of EL going to bermuda, even something as good as Champion, is just amazing to me, but it sure does sound like a done deal.  I talked to the super at my club about it today, and his take was EXACTLY what Chris Cupit posted yesterday; big potential issues with bermuda greens in Atlanta.

I have also heard (reliably, I think) that EL contacted at least two area clubs about purchasing bent sod from their turf nurseries in the last couple of weeks, so the situation there must be bad.

[paul cowley]

The greens in Greenwood SC, at the Patriot course, are not over seeded, but instead rolled occasionally and mowed during warm spells....and lightly painted.

Billy Ford, the Super, has done a great job managing the turf.
He was also responsible for the choice of Mini Verdi and the topsoil greens mix we used.

I understand that many of the members prefer the dormant greens. They can be both fast and firmer than when growing.

I don't see Greenwood as being that much climatically different than Atlanta....more like Callaway if anything.

Maybe that is too much of a difference?

[Michael Christensen]

just give the club on Ashford Dunwoody a call...I am sure they could make room for 30 players Thrusday to Sunday.....there are no problems with their greens!

[K. Krahenbuhl]

There's more.  Or, upon further review, as Tony was saying...

"Conditions of the greens at East Lake Golf Club have reached such a critical point that officials may not allow players on the course until the first round of The Tour Championship on Thursday."

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/stories/2007/09/08/tourgreens_0909.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab

They reported on the golf channel tonight that players will not be allowed on the greens or to hit approach shots into the greens until the first day of the event.  It will be interesting to see the reactions from all sides.

[A.G._Crockett]

just give the club on Ashford Dunwoody a call...I am sure they could make room for 30 players Thrusday to Sunday.....there are no problems with their greens!

An excellent suggestion!  I've never seen anybody on that course when I drive by; they should be able to work them in.  In fact, play the tournament there so the great unwashed can get a look at the place!

[BCrosby]

I talked to a couple of people yesterday who said the EL greens are not good.

Which is a bit of a mystery. It was a brutally hot August, but most courses in ATL seemed to survive it pretty well.

Bob

 

[Joe Hancock]

I talked to a couple of people yesterday who said the EL greens are not good.

Which is a bit of a mystery. It was a brutally hot August, but most courses in ATL seemed to survive it pretty well.

Bob

 

Bob,

Most courses weren't preparing to host a PGA Tour event at the end of a long, hot summer. Who knows what they may have been told to do, agronomically.

Joe

[Michael Christensen]

AG...that is the kicker...players and caddies only allowed.  No patrons!  Maybe even no TV.  You'll had your chance in 1989 to see behind the pearly gates!  

[Tim Copeland]

I talked to a couple of people yesterday who said the EL greens are not good.

Which is a bit of a mystery. It was a brutally hot August, but most courses in ATL seemed to survive it pretty well.

Bob

 

Am I reading you correctly.......Just because OTHER courses in ATL are in good shape....EL should be too??

I hope that is not what you meant.

If that is what you meant...youi have never drug a hose

[Brian Jones]

AG...that is the kicker...players and caddies only allowed.  No patrons!  Maybe even no TV.  You'll had your chance in 1989 to see behind the pearly gates!  

Michael:

I assume you mean the 89 Walker Cup.  I was there and what a great experience it was.  All except the US losing the cup for the first time on American soil.  Intersting US team captained by Fred Ridley; Robert Gamez, David Eger, Jay Sigel, Allen Doyle (didn't play due to a back injury but was selected to the team and present) Ralph Howe III, Doug Martin, Kevin Johnson, Peachtree memeber Danny Yates, Greg Lesher and an 18 or 19 year old Phil Mickelson.

[BCrosby]

I would honestly like to know what happened this summer at EL. From some of the comments above, it sounds like I am missing something obvious.

So help me out here. What did EL do (or what was it forced to do) with its greens?

Not many other courses in the area are suffering as much and they get much more daily play than EL.

Bob

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