[David Stamm]

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but TGC has been running a series of Top Ten (fill in the blank) shows. They did one over the weekend on what the people on the show considered top 10 golf holes on tour. The list was as follows:

10. 10 Riviera  
9.   18 Bayhill
8.   16th at TPC Scottsdale
7.   18 Doral
6.   18 at Sawgrass
5.    7  Pebble
4.   18 Pebble  
3.   13 AGNC    
2.   12 AGNC  
1.   17 Sawgrass


Thoughts? Agree, disagree?

[Roger Tufts]

Sigh @ #1. I'll give them famous/cool/whatever.

But the hole has no strategy. Come on.

[JohnV]

Roger,  where does it say that every hole has to be strategic to be  one of the best.  Maybe it is too much to make it #1, but still given the drama there it needs to be near the top.

It is an interesting statement about what they consider to be great golf.

With all the monster par 3s on tour, the three they pick are all relatively short.  Why not one like #4 at Riviera for example?  2 short par 4s and 3 long tough finishing holes.  A short par 5 and one that has become reachable with today's technology.

Most of these holes offer a lot of drama, but I have to believe they aren't the top 10 holes on tour.  #8 at Pebble isn't on the list for example.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sigh @ #1. I'll give them famous/cool/whatever.

But the hole has no strategy. Come on.

Ain't gonna be that easy to impress us Ivy.  I think 17 at Sawgrass has tons of micro-strategy.  Do you really believe that every pin placement plays the same?  Do you think that where you stand in the tournament doesn't make a difference?  It may be the most strategic for tour players of any hole on the list.

[igrowgrass]

The 16th at the TPC of Scottsdale shouldn't even be in the top 200, let alone the top 10.  Yet, everyone that goes to the FBR Open wants to stop there to see what the craziest hole in golf is really like.

[Adam Clayman]

This list appears to perfectly represents the channel's target market.

[John Kavanaugh]

So, what won the inventors corner?

[Roger Tufts]

Sigh @ #1. I'll give them famous/cool/whatever.

But the hole has no strategy. Come on.

Ain't gonna be that easy to impress us Ivy.  I think 17 at Sawgrass has tons of micro-strategy.  Do you really believe that every pin placement plays the same?  Do you think that where you stand in the tournament doesn't make a difference?  It may be the most strategic for tour players of any hole on the list.

Yes, I see micro strategy there, and JVB it doesn't have to be strategic to be on the list.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be #1 on their list, and I know they're only considering holes on tour, just saying it wouldn't be on mine.

In terms of drama, JVB you're correct and I agree with that- the Augusta holes especially.

And whats this calling me "Ivy" BS

[David Stamm]

  It may be the most strategic for tour players of any hole on the list.

More so than the 10th at Riviera? I think not.

[David Stamm]

  #8 at Pebble isn't on the list for example.

John, this was one of the holes I was thinking of as well. Bayhill makes it and this does not?

What about holes at Spyglass, Westchester, Colonial, Harbor Town, Muirfield Village, etc.? How can these courses get shutout from a list such as this?

[igrowgrass]

So, what won the inventors corner?

The Club Caddy (The oversized clothespin)

[JNC Lyon]

18 @ KAPALUA PLANTATION.  My pleas for the obvious probably wouldn't work.  18 at Bay Hill, 18 at Sawgrass, and 18 at Doral are great holes, just great holes.  You know why??? They have WATER on them!!!
 

Seriously, though, this list is awful.  It makes me sick to think everyone truly believes that those three holes are good at all, the most cookie-cutter excuse for an 18th hole that exists.  The only hole on tour that's like that that has some substance/uniqueness is the 18th at Harbour Town, and that isn't even on the list.  12 better than 13 at ANGC in any way?? Nah.  The list has some hope with 10 at Riviera, but any quality is immediately squashed with 16 at TPC at Scottsdale, within the grandstands, is no better than any par three at your local muni (unless you live in Farmingdale, NY).

this list shows everything that's wrong with the Golf Channel (which I hardly ever watch except for tournament/post-tournament coverage of PGA tour events).

[Tim Pitner]

Aren't #18 at Sawgrass and #18 at Doral the same hole (and isn't #18 at Bay Hill the mirror image of that hole)?  So, it seems like there is room for a few more holes on the list.  

[John Kavanaugh]

So, what won the inventors corner?

The Club Caddy (The oversized clothespin)

If Len Bias had that thing on his nose the Celtics would have five more championships.  The Club Caddy stinks.

[Tim Pitner]

So, what won the inventors corner?

The Club Caddy (The oversized clothespin)

If Len Bias had that thing on his nose the Celtics would have five more championships.  The Club Caddy stinks.

Len Bias was a helluva player (he played the same position as Bird, though).  

[Matt_Cohn]

yawn...

[Rich Goodale]

Bias was when the NBA jumped the shark for me.

JVB is right about the 17th at TPC--the hole which is most influential to a tour golfer's strategy.

[Jerry Kluger]

A great golf hole confronts the player with certain options and different strategies and then requires execution.  The 17th at Sawgrass has no options or strategies - it is a short hole that requires a shot that lands softly in a defined area - nothing more, nothing less.  Is it fun and exciting to watch - yes.  But don't call it great architecture.  If I remember this year's Players, most players hit a high and soft 9 iron and hoped that the wind didn't suddenly gust and blow their ball over the green.  Please, you want to compare that to the 12th at ANGC.

[JohnV]

Oops, it was late last night.  I read the 16th at TPC Scottsdale and thought of the 17th, which I think is a much better hole than the 16th..

[Tom Birkert]

I’ve played a few of those holes and all that shows to me is that they are generally voting for drama and excitement rather than the individual quality of the holes. The 18th at Bay Hill, in my opinion, is in no way, shape, or form better than the 10th at Riviera. As has been pointed out, several of the holes there are almost identikits of each other.

I presume this is based on courses that are routinely played as I would certainly have several holes at Oakmont there (give me their 17th over a lot of that list anyday!).

[Phil Benedict]

18 @ KAPALUA PLANTATION.  My pleas for the obvious probably wouldn't work.  18 at Bay Hill, 18 at Sawgrass, and 18 at Doral are great holes, just great holes.  You know why??? They have WATER on them!!!
 

I think 8 of the 9 holes have water on them.  I'm not sure about the 16th at Scottsdale.

[JNC Lyon]

The first two holes (Riviera's 10th and TPC Scottsdale's 16th) don't have water on them, so I'm very surprised they made the list.  17 at Scottsdale is far more interesting than 16.  TPC Scottsdale looks like a pretty interesting course overall, but far from one of the best on tour.

[A.G._Crockett]

Bias was when the NBA jumped the shark for me.

JVB is right about the 17th at TPC--the hole which is most influential to a tour golfer's strategy.

If by this you mean that it is the hole that most makes them think, "Oh, Jeez,  I hope I don't hit it long, short, left, or right!" then I absolutely agree.  

I'm thankful that strategy generally involves some other elements, though...

[rjsimper]

  It may be the most strategic for tour players of any hole on the list.

More so than the 10th at Riviera? I think not.

David-

If a hole has strategy but none of the touring pros use it, does that make it a strategic hole in the context of the PGA Tour?

[Phil Benedict]

I don't like water hazards but I think they add a bit of drama to tour events, particularly at the finish.  Places like Bay Hill and TPC Sawgrass may not be great courses for amateurs but all that water on the last few holes keeps the outcome in doubt until the end.

I think the inclusion of Doral 18 is a legacy rating.  Modern technology has taken the teeth out of the hole, of so it appears to me.

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