Combining back and middle tees

[Jerry Kluger]

I have recently played a couple of new courses where they had ratings and slopes for a combination of back and middle tees as well as middle and forward tees.  This gave the player more options as to how difficult a course he wanted to tackle on that day.  

I was wondering if anyone has seen this being done at older courses as they are being stretched to their limits.  My club has a number of par 4s and a couple of par 5s that have become rather short due to technology and I was thinking that a combination of back tees plus middle tees could be a good way of dealing with the issue. I know I would like the challenge as to some holes but others would be too much for me from the back tees.

[Jason Topp]

Jerry - here is my post from the other thread.  Almost all of the courses in my area do this although I do not know of anyone who has actually followed the suggestion.

Many courses in my area have a suggested mixed set of tees.  It appears to me that they simply alternate between sets from hole to hole.  

I think a better general approach is to play back tees on par fours and forward tees on 5's and 3's.  3's tend to be too long, I believe because designers like to sneak yardage into those holes and 5's become more fun if the agressive play is a viable option.  For the same reason, I would also play forward tees on short par fours if any exist.

[Phil Benedict]

This is an interesting topic because I belong to a course where new back tees have been built in the past 5 years, primarily by lengthening what were previously the longer par 4's.  For example, one hole that was previously 425 is now 455 from the blue tees.  The differential between the whites and blues has gone from 250 to at about 450 yards.

One consequence is that fewer people play the blues.  Even some low single digit handicappers prefer the whites, probably because the longer par 4's have become 3-shot holes for many players.

This is unfortunate because some of the holes that haven't been lengthened are more interesting from the blue tees.  For example, one of our par 4's is 385 yards from the blues with a slight dogleg right and trouble on the left, creating a challenging tee shot.  From the whites, it's a straight away 355 yard hole where any shot shape can work off the tee.  Boring!  There are other examples.  

While I enjoy the new blues tees, I think some players would be interested in a course set up like the old blues.

[D_Malley]

on our course we use combined back (blue tees) and middle (white tees) on several holes.  what i mean by that is: on certain holes either due to the length of the hole or lack of teeing area we have tee markers which are painted half white and half blue, and all back and middle tee players play from the same spot on these holes.  we use this on about half of our holes, the other half has seperate tee markers.  this helps to provide a little more variety in the tee position and also saves wear on the tees.

[Jerry Kluger]

I saw this at 2 Jim Engh courses where the scorecard had little arrows pointing either up or down on each hole which told you which tee to play.  There then was a separate course rating and slope for that combination.  It seemed to me to be an excellent idea and it would work well on older courses as well.

[Tommy Williamsen]

My course does that.  It is, however, a newer course.  I played Minneapolis GC this past weekend and they have gone to that system.  I have made it a practice to that even when the scorecard doesn't offer that option.  I like to play the back tees on par threes.  I will generally  play it up on reachable par fives for the fun of going for the green in two.  One of the par fours at my home course is awful from the gold tees.  I always go back to the blacks, even though the card doesn't off that option.

I fon't see that option on older courses very much though.

[Sean_A]

It sounds like there may be some concerns about a mix n' match course not being rated for handicap purposes.  Is this a reason for not doing yer own thing when it comes to tee selection?

Ciao

[Brad Tufts]

This process could bridge the gap between the tips and the members' tees at ANGC....

[Phil Benedict]

It sounds like there may be some concerns about a mix n' match course not being rated for handicap purposes.  Is this a reason for not doing yer own thing when it comes to tee selection?

Ciao

I think the lack of a rating for handicap purposes is a big factor.  Most guys want to post a score.  

[JohnV]

It sounds like there may be some concerns about a mix n' match course not being rated for handicap purposes.  Is this a reason for not doing yer own thing when it comes to tee selection?

Ciao

Most guys want to post a score.

The local golf association has all the numbers and can do a rating for any combination of tees just by calculating them at the office.

Just a call from the club can make this happen.

Quite a few clubs around Atlanta have ratings from combinations of tees.
I think the lack of a rating for handicap purposes is a big factor.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

The courses that I have played  have the slope and rating for the combination course.

[Sean_A]

Thanks guys.  However, what I am talking about is a true mix n' match - anywhere from the far front to all the way back and chosen randomly (or with that guise in mind for the gamblers) on each hole.  Surely a club won't have a rating for such a haphazard affair?  It seems a pity that guys are so concerned with posting a score that they wouldn't explore the options a course presents.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Yes Sean

Yet another example as to how the USGA handicapping system takes much of the fun and the adventure out of the game of golf....

Rich

[JohnV]

Thanks guys.  However, what I am talking about is a true mix n' match - anywhere from the far front to all the way back and chosen randomly (or with that guise in mind for the gamblers) on each hole.  Surely a club won't have a rating for such a haphazard affair?  It seems a pity that guys are so concerned with posting a score that they wouldn't explore the options a course presents.

Ciao

Sean, you are correct is saying that there isn't a precalculated rating for any set of random tees.  Theoretically there is no reason it couldn't be done for any set of tees that have had a men's rating done (or a woman's rating if so inclined.)  If the individual hole ratings were stored on the computer and you went through after the round and specified which tees you played on each hole a rating could be generated.

Barring that, a rating can always be done just by using the USGA tables for playing an unrated tee.  Take the tees you played the most of, figure out the difference in yardage from the other tees you played and look up the difference in the table.  The table can be found on page 35 of the USGA Handicap Manual.  An online version of that exists at the USGA Website.

For example, if the course you played was 410 yards shorter than the yardage for the back tees, you would subtract 1.9 from the Course Rating and 5 from the Slope from the back tee rating.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

This is not uncommon in some newer courses that I've played. I think it's a good idea. I remember being paired with someone from Minnesota at a resort course in Arizona. When I asked what tees he wanted to play from, he suggested the "German tees." I asked where are they. He said he played the par5s and par3s(the back tees,not the tips) from the blues and the par4s from the whites. Made sense to me. I never asked about the derivation of the term. Does anyone know?

[Doug Ralston]

Being a very short hitter, I tend to play par-4's from forward tees, and go back on some par-3's and par-5's. Afterall, if I cannot reach a 400yd par-4 in two strokes, it does not mean I cannot hit a single shot 175yd instead of 130yd.

No handicap, so I feel free to experiment with having as much challenge as I am able to grasp.

Doug

[Tom Huckaby]

And Sean, don't be fooled by "everything in the USA sucks" Goodale.  Remember the percentage of people playing the game here who actually have handicaps and thus care about posting scores remains pretty small.  And even among those, if one is inclinded to play a mix and match set of tees, it's pretty darn easy to just estimate rating and slope if you don't have a rating already - as JV explains.  So you can easily post even odd rounds like this.  Mike Benham and I each have a round like this on our current record....

The USGA handicapping system sucks no fun nor adventure out of the game, despite what contrarians want you to believe.

 

TH

[Brent Hutto]

Tom,

I play in the Sunday 9.30am game at my club most weekends. Four man teams, random draw. We used to play gross Stableford points plus your course handicap. Then a few months ago they modified it by counting -1 point for a triple bogey. Which BTW they wouldn't need to do if they'd play actual (net) Stableford like everybody else in the world but that's beside the point.

So basically worse than triple-bogey doesn't matter. Yet with a course handicap of 22 my ESC limit is quad-bogey 8 on the Par 4's. So I always try my best to make double and then pick up after that. Now believe me is not the same approach as I would use in an actual stroke-play event where a 10 is worse than a 9.

This past Sunday I hit a wedge out of the rough into a lateral hazard near the green. Took a drop, so lying four and needing to get up and down for my double. Shortsided, hitting out of rough over a big mound with no green to work with and sloping away from me. Tried to get cute and land the ball in the fringe, caught rough instead so now chipping from a bad lie onto a downslope to a hole only 15-18 feet away. Popped it out with a lob wedge and it ran 30 feet past the hole over a ridge and basically out of play.

So that had blown my double. I went and picked up the ball. One of the guys on my team goes all handicap-lawyer on me and says I need to try and make that 30-footer back over the ridge for my triple or else count a quad. The ball's already in my pocket so I tell him to write down the quad or whatever likes because at that point I don't give a shit. But he doesn't like that either because it's like sandbagging if I don't actually try to make the putt.

So I slowed down and explained that in a stroke-play tournament, I would have wedged the ball all the way to the fat part of the green and just tried to two-putt for triple from 30-40 feet in the first place. The whole reason for trying to pull off a nigh-impossible shot was to save a point for the team. He totally blew off that line of reasoning. If I'm going to have a handicap it's not fair to the other players to act like there's no difference in a triple and a quad even if the game we're playing makes trying for the double absolutely necessary.

I dunno. For me that whole argument took a lot of the fun out of the game. What an ignorant, bastard system we're stuck with.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I think we are about to fix this problem at Rolling Green.  With our new back tees, Rolling Green is around 6,870.  The white tees are around 6,350.  We need a 6,600ish yard course for the 6-12 handicappers.  It's pretty easily accomplished by simply using the old back tees (6,650) and playing our 615 yd. 9th from the longer white tee length of 560.  Everybody's happy, and play on all the tees gets spread out to ease maintenance issues.

[Tom Huckaby]

Brent:

That's not the fault of the system at all... you can pick up at ANY time and take your maximum score allowed per ESC. Do this too many times and the score's not going to be one of the low 10 out of the last 20... man it would take a lot of work to keep doing that as a means of sandbagging.

The ignorant bastard there was your team-mate.

TH

[JohnV]

Actually, any time you pickup you should use the score you were most like to make for posting.  If that is higher than your max ESC, then you use the ESC.

So, if you think it was legitimate to expect that you would make the next putt for a triple, put that on the card.  Otherwise take the quad.  Obviously it is not normal to expect to make a 30 footer so you should have put down the 8.  Tell the guy who complained to see the Decision 4-1/1 in the Handicap Manual on page 28.

Obviously we all play differently when we are playing match play vs stroke play vs Stableford, but the USGA still assumes you are trying to make the best score possible for the conditions of the competition and wants you to post based on the way you played, not how how you would have played if it was a different format.

[Sean_A]

This past Sunday I hit a wedge out of the rough into a lateral hazard near the green.

Hang on Brent!  I thought you had those wedges dialed in with that machine of yours which calculates yardage.  

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Ok then well there you have it. Like JV said - that's what I really meant.  

And I still think your team-mate was the ignorant bastard, Brent.

 

[Sean_A]

Actually, any time you pickup you should use the score you were most like to make for posting.  If that is higher than your max ESC, then you use the ESC.

So, if you think it was legitimate to expect that you would make the next putt for a triple, put that on the card.  Otherwise take the quad.  Obviously it is not normal to expect to make a 30 footer so you should have put down the 8.  Tell the guy who complained to see the Decision 4-1/1 in the Handicap Manual on page 28.

Obviously we all play differently when we are playing match play vs stroke play vs Stableford, but the USGA still assumes you are trying to make the best score possible for the conditions of the competition and wants you to post based on the way you played, not how how you would have played if it was a different format.

This is the part that gets me.  "Assume" a score.  What on earth does an assumption have to do with a real score and therefore a handicap?  This is the part where peer review is necessary and why only competitive rounds should be used - the ball is holed out.

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean, do you REALLY want to go over this again?  How many go-rounds will this make, 500?

Please remember this is an odd occurrence.  The vast majority of the time the ball is holed out and a score is made and that's what you take, using the ESC parameters also.  Since all rounds are to be posted though, we need something to cover what occurs when a guy picks up (like in match play).  Thus this odd but necessary handicap rule.

Please also remember that we don't have nearly enough medal play here to do all handicap rounds via that.  It's just not our way like it is there.

We've covered it many, many times before.  Our system works here, CONGU works there.  It is what it is.

TH