Gil Hanse has taken the 425-yard fourth and turned it into a 298-yarder.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Holy Christ John, why didn't you say so!?! Fair tradeoff? I think he's way, way ahead! You must really love your boy.


Anthony

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeebus....not too many comments ON THE HOLE IN QUESTION in this thread...or even the issue of converting a longer par 4 to a shorter one...

I think my comment "Textbook" said it all.  I'm curious if the walk was lengthened on the green end or the tee end.

[Adam Clayman]

Jeebus....not too many comments ON THE HOLE IN QUESTION in this thread...or even the issue of converting a longer par 4 to a shorter one...

I'm with you Brad. The significance of this alteration is that it goes against the trend of making golf courses longer. It almost feels like an experiment, or like Shinney, just before that great and terrible final day.

This change highlights GCA in a way we haven't seen. Shortening a hole?? Hopefully it will teach the "herd" mentality and the Freshman mistakers to think.

Another example of novice alterations came up at breakfast Sunday. The guy is a certified Arborist and not a golfer. He clearly spelled out, if he were a golfer, if he had to go from point A to point B and someone placed a tree directly in the middle of that line, it would make it harder.

In this case, from the mouths of babes, don't compute.

[Phil Benedict]

The normal "back" tee on this hole is about 300 from the green.  It plays even shorter, as I don't think it is measured as the crow flies, the hole bends slightly to the right.

There is another tee on this hole that is a bit further back over some wetlands, which is probably 330-340 from the green.  I bet they will use both teeing spots.

I don't know the topography of the hole but unless it's uphill 330-340 is still drivable for some of these guys.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jackie Fitzgerald was always the first one down the metal outdoor fire escapes during drills at St. Francis  

JES11,
I played a fun par 4 the other day that said 294 on the card, that was with one foot off the back of the tee. I have no great problem with the TPC's designating the hole at 298, I just think doing so at a high profile TV course deflects criticism away from the ball/club/distance issue.

[Adam Clayman]

Jim, Does it deflect because it combats that arguement sucsessfully?

[JESII]

Jim,

I'm lost as to why 298 is substantively different (and worse?) than 304...

[Brad Tufts]

The hole is basically flat.

The green is almost perpendicular to the fairway, oriented at an angle of maybe 9:30-3:30.  There is a deep bunker fronting the entire green, save for maybe 15 feet of opening at front right.  This small portion is surrounded by chipping areas, in front, around to the right, and slightly behind, about 5 feet below the green, before it ties in with the green-level slope covered in rough in the back.

The fairway for those hitting 3-5 irons is humped and bumped so there is a chance the SW shot will not be from a flat lie.  There are also a couple bunkers about 70 yards short that really shouldn't come into play.  Down the right side of the fairway is a large area of wetlands, which on that line is maybe 210 to carry.

So, with a front right pin, the pros will have a shot to run a ball up the chipping slopes to this tiny part of the green.  If they miss it will be a very touchy shot.

If the pin is out back, it will be a LONG carry to get on the green over the bunker, maybe 300 from the front tees, 330 from the back.  This is where we may see them lay up, as the back portion is relatively flat, and accessible with a wedge, whereas the front section is VERY tight.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Adam,
No.

JES11,
Playing?  none
Impressions? yes, but that's just an opinion.

[Bill_McBride]

Touche Tommy.

Interesting topic. At our club in ATL we are discussing converting a mediocre 400 yard par 4 into what might be a really intersting 300 yard par 4.  The course does not now have a hole like it. It would be a nice change of pace.

The reactions of various people have been interesting. Most initially wanted to make the existing hole harder. Others wanted to shorten it to a really hard, long par 3.

But after some back and forth, most now seem to like the idea of a strategically bunkered, small green, reacheable 4. I do too.

The point being that the instincts of the everyday golfer when asked to fix a mediocre hole is to change it in ways that, in essence, will tighten scoring spreads. They want to make the hole narrower, longer and harder.

Which seems to me (almost) always the wrong design choice.

Bob, this is not a hole at Athens, right?

Are they planning to use either the existing tee or the existing green site?  What happens to the extra 100 yards?  Just wondering about how that would affect the routing.

Are you planning to join the Dixie Cup crowd before the day of?  I'm hoping we can play together at Athens that Friday.

Bill

[JESII]

Adam,
No.

JES11,
Playing?  none
Impressions? yes, but that's just an opinion.

Jim,

I'm sorry, but what impressions? Is it less likely a pro will try to drive the green if he thinks it's 304 as opposed to 298?

Or is it the impressions of those watching? Because if this is the angle you're thinking, I'd disagree...everything I've seen from Tour and Network efforts is to make us think these guys hit the ball miles and miles...

[Jim_Kennedy]

JES11,
You should be
 
 

As Tom suggested, $299.99 sounds like a good deal. In retail it suggests $200.00, not $300.00.

I think 298 yards bolsters arguments for unbridling technology, but, that's just me.

 

[JESII]

I think you all read too much into too many things...

[JESII]

Bob:

Can you believe what JohnK is saying? This is what happens when you sniff too much asphalt for too many decades. List the new hole at Athens at $299.99 yards. Maybe that will make Kavanaugh think he's getting a good deal or something.

Jim K,

Here's the whole quote from TEP...less the tongue in cheek...

[Wayne_Kozun]

Why not have several prominent members hit balls from stake to stake until you find the distance that creates the most happiness for the majority?  I love that idea.

Didn't you see what Ian MacCallister said: “Golf is supposed to be difficult; it’s a Scottish game for goodness sake. It was never intended to be fun“.

[Jim_Kennedy]

J2S2,

I read the quote.

I made an observation and gave you my reason for it, it differs from yours, you don't accept it, I don't think any less of you because of that.

[JESII]

Somebody's speakin' Greek here...

Sorry for the confusion...

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm calling the 298yd figure out as untrue.  It is a publicity stunt, a gimmick, an insult to anyone who loves architecture.  I need someone with a rangefinder to shoot this for me and expose this travesty for what it is.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John, Tiger Woods seems to like the hole.

[RJ_Daley]

Besides reasons to make the hole an interesting decision to go for it or lay up... it doesn't mean that the 100 yards is lost on the overall length of the course.  They may use the extra room to lengthen the following hole by building new tees back further to accomplish two things.  They may be making a more mundane and straight forward par 4, 400 yard into a very interesting par 4 shorty, and get the added benefit of a better angle into the following hole, thus improving two holes and not loosing scorecard yardage.

[John Kavanaugh]

John, Tiger Woods seems to like the hole.

Damn...I didn't read Tiger's blog today.  What did I miss?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Go read Geoff's. You  know the one you seem to like to pick on daily verbatim.

[John Kavanaugh]

Go read Geoff's. You  know the one you seem to like to pick on daily verbatim.

I have tried to be nothing but gracious to Geoff and his site.  I find it to be an invaluable resource for the hardcore golf fan.  I only post comments on his site under the name JakaB and missed this article because I check the site first thing in the morning everyday.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I just drove my 12 year old to school...I think it is great that everyday he wears a uniform and carries textbooks to class.  I still remember the fist time I saw an architect in his ASGCA blazer...It was Forrest Richardson and he looked fabulous."


John:

This year I went to the US Open in Pittsburgh and I got extremely lucky in that I met Forrest Richardson at a dinner. As I recall, he was not in his ASGCA blazer but he certainly did look fabulous.

[Tom Yost]

Go read Geoff's. You  know the one you seem to like to pick on daily verbatim.

I saw Shack on last night's Golf Central show giving a comment in a segment about the changes to the fourth hole.


Tom

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