Gil Hanse has taken the 425-yard fourth and turned it into a 298-yarder.

[Scott Coan]

Interesting article in todays Globe about Hanse's changes to TPC Boston:

""We had the opportunity to take something negative and make it positive," said Steve Wenzloff, the PGA Tour's vice president of design services. He envisioned a short par 4 and ran the idea past his tour colleagues. "The concept was in place and we presented that concept to Hanse."

In the Philadelphia-born Hanse, Wenzloff had faith.

"There aren't a lot of architects today who are designing short par 4s," said Wenzloff. "Players love them."

Even Hall of Famers.

"My favorite holes are short par 4s," said Jack Nicklaus. "They're the most fun to design and the most fun to play."

It's a fine line you walk to put those two in harmony. For Hanse, the challenge was to produce a hole that met his high standards and at the same time kept PGA Tour officials happy. That is a juggling act not easily navigated. The architect's view often involves different priorities than the owner's, in this case the PGA Tour. Wenzloff conceded as much.

"Part of our business is to manage the pace of play and ultimately get the competition fit within the allotted TV time," he said. "We have to strike a balance between entertainment value as well as a competitive value."

http://www.boston.com/sports/golf/articles/2007/08/30/hole_change_adds_a_fourth_dimension/

[John Kavanaugh]

Textbook.

[Dan Herrmann]

John,
Is that a compliment or a knock?

[Brent Hutto]

So if I concept works and everyone likes it, as soon as it gets popular enough to be put in the "textbook" then it's a bad idea.

So once the medical school textbooks all tell doctors how to diagnose a certain condition, they ought to quit using that diagnosis?

Generally, it's the good ideas that get propagated in the textbooks.

[John Kavanaugh]

I bet it would be my favorite hole on the course.  I support textbooks.

[Dan Herrmann]

Thanks...  That's what I thought you meant.

[TEPaul]

"I support textbooks."

John:

But you maintain you refuse to read books. So how do you support textbooks, by balancing them on your head?

[BCrosby]

Touche Tommy.

Interesting topic. At our club in ATL we are discussing converting a mediocre 400 yard par 4 into what might be a really intersting 300 yard par 4.  The course does not now have a hole like it. It would be a nice change of pace.

The reactions of various people have been interesting. Most initially wanted to make the existing hole harder. Others wanted to shorten it to a really hard, long par 3.

But after some back and forth, most now seem to like the idea of a strategically bunkered, small green, reacheable 4. I do too.

The point being that the instincts of the everyday golfer when asked to fix a mediocre hole is to change it in ways that, in essence, will tighten scoring spreads. They want to make the hole narrower, longer and harder.

Which seems to me (almost) always the wrong design choice.

Bob

[Kyle Harris]

I wonder what happens to those opinions if the par were changed from 4 to 3...

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

What is Wenzloff's design background? He is in charge of making all the changes to TPC River Highlands. Bobby Weed, the original architect, is no longer consulted.


Anthony

[Brad Tufts]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=28543;start=msg596860#msg596860

[John Kavanaugh]

Touche Tommy.

Interesting topic. At our club in ATL we are discussing converting a mediocre 400 yard par 4 into what might be a really intersting 300 yard par 4.  The course does not now have a hole like it. It would be a nice change of pace.

The reactions of various people have been interesting. Most initially wanted to make the existing hole harder. Others wanted to shorten it to a really hard, long par 3.

But after some back and forth, most now seem to like the idea of a strategically bunkered, small green, reacheable 4. I do too.

The point being that the instincts of the everyday golfer when asked to fix a mediocre hole is to change it in ways that, in essence, will tighten scoring spreads. They want to make the hole narrower, longer and harder.

Which seems to me (almost) always the wrong design choice.

Bob

Bob,

Who in your club will decide what the proper length of the hole will be?    

What offends me about the TPC hole is the declaration that it is 298 yds...It just feels so contrived and I bet is a misstatement of fact.  I want to know where this measurement came from on the tee (back, middle or front) and if it is consistent with the rest of the hole measurements.  I'm betting it is actually 304-307.

[JESII]

Why?

[John Kavanaugh]

"I support textbooks."

John:

But you maintain you refuse to read books. So how do you support textbooks, by balancing them on your head?

Tom,

I just drove my 12 year old to school...I think it is great that everyday he wears a uniform and carries textbooks to class.  I still remember the fist time I saw an architect in his ASGCA blazer...It was Forrest Richardson and he looked fabulous.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why?

Why what?

[paul cowley]

Interesting article in todays Globe about Hanse's changes to TPC Boston:

""We had the opportunity to take something negative and make it positive," said Steve Wenzloff, the PGA Tour's vice president of design services. He envisioned a short par 4 and ran the idea past his tour colleagues. "The concept was in place and we presented that concept to Hanse."

In the Philadelphia-born Hanse, Wenzloff had faith.

"There aren't a lot of architects today who are designing short par 4s," said Wenzloff. "Players love them."

Even Hall of Famers.

"My favorite holes are short par 4s," said Jack Nicklaus. "They're the most fun to design and the most fun to play."

It's a fine line you walk to put those two in harmony. For Hanse, the challenge was to produce a hole that met his high standards and at the same time kept PGA Tour officials happy. That is a juggling act not easily navigated. The architect's view often involves different priorities than the owner's, in this case the PGA Tour. Wenzloff conceded as much.

"Part of our business is to manage the pace of play and ultimately get the competition fit within the allotted TV time," he said. "We have to strike a balance between entertainment value as well as a competitive value."

http://www.boston.com/sports/golf/articles/2007/08/30/hole_change_adds_a_fourth_dimension/

I have no doubt that Gil has built a fine hole, but I wouldn't get my hopes up that they will end up using it. The setup and pace of play folks of the PGA Tour have a lot to say in this matter.

We designed a fine reachable par four at Forest Oaks [#7, played from the up tees], which we shortened from a longer version, which was to be used for Sat and Sun rounds when the field was smaller......it would have been dramatic as the green is downhill and redanish, with water on the left.

After four years of televising I have yet to see it played as such. In the second year they started using a tee that was even further back [a tee we had abandoned during the renovation.

Hopefully TPC Boston will have better results.

[Jim_Kennedy]

What offends me about the TPC hole is the declaration that it is 298 yds...It just feels so contrived and I bet is a misstatement of fact-JK

I'm sure that somewhere in the teeing area the hole measures 298, but it's silly not to just call it 300 and get it over with.

[JESII]

What offends me about the TPC hole is the declaration that it is 298 yds...It just feels so contrived and I bet is a misstatement of fact-JK

I'm sure that somewhere in the teeing area the hole measures 298, but it's silly not to just call it 300 and get it over with.

Why?

[BCrosby]

Bob,

Who in your club will decide what the proper length of the hole will be?    

What offends me about the TPC hole is the declaration that it is 298 yds...It just feels so contrived and I bet is a mistatement of fact.  I want to know where this measurement came from on the tee (back, middle or front) and if it is consistent with the rest of the hole measurements.  I'm betting it is actually 304-307.

Offends you? Would you be less offended if the hole were 301? How about 294? 307? Tell me when to stop.

As for our new hole, no one has set a distance. We will try to site a green in the best place possible, site a tee or two in the best place possible and then measure the distance. (If we do this, it will at the direction of a real archie, btw.)

Does that offend you too?

Bob

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

John,

That's great about your 12-year-old wearing a uniform. I also believe in crushing individualism at a very young age.

Anthony

[Brad Tufts]

The normal "back" tee on this hole is about 300 from the green.  It plays even shorter, as I don't think it is measured as the crow flies, the hole bends slightly to the right.

There is another tee on this hole that is a bit further back over some wetlands, which is probably 330-340 from the green.  I bet they will use both teeing spots.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Can you believe what JohnK is saying? This is what happens when you sniff too much asphalt for too many decades. List the new hole at Athens at $299.99 yards. Maybe that will make Kavanaugh think he's getting a good deal or something.

[John Kavanaugh]

Bob,

Why not have several prominent members hit balls from stake to stake until you find the distance that creates the most happiness for the majority?  I love that idea.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

That's great about your 12-year-old wearing a uniform. I also believe in crushing individualism at a very young age.

Anthony

It is a fair tradeoff when you consider that he gets to spend his day with Catholic school girls also in uniform.

[Brad Tufts]

Jeebus....not too many comments ON THE HOLE IN QUESTION in this thread...or even the issue of converting a longer par 4 to a shorter one...

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