The Noses of Principals

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tommy,

What is your opinion of the two I posted?

Antek

[D_Malley]

new PN bunkers on 5th hole at Paxon Hollow
Just added last year

[BCrosby]

Anthony -

I think the two modern PN's above are awful. Nose hair sums them up well.

I'm not sure those are even PN bunkers. Not all centerline bunkers ("clb's") are PN bunkers. Some (or maybe all) of the pics above are plain old clb's.

I'd always thought that PN's are a subset of clb's. They are distinguishable by their function. A PN defines a narrow playing corridor bounded by the PN near the cl and on the outside by near-by bad stuff like ob (TOC, Woking) or water (17 at Cypress).

The narrow playing corridor so defined turns out to be the best angle into the green.

As such, PN's don't have to be very big. Just gnarly little sandy messes somewhere near the cl work just fine.

Most of the pics above are of clb's on what seem to be wide open fw's. They don't define a narrow line of charm - at least from what I can see in the pics. They just block play down the middle of the fw.

Bob

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Wow. You people are no fun.

I'll answer the question.

The top two photos show a Tom Doak Principal's Nose design.

The bottom two show a Roger Rulewich Principal's Nose design.

Hmmmmm......


Anthony

[John_Cullum]

Shouldn't a principal's nose have two nostrels. Without that, it's just a bunker and a bump

[paul cowley]

Its interesting that the two Rulewich photos are of the same bunker....front and back, while the two Doak photos seem to be of two different bunkers....oh, but wait, Toms first photo is from perpendicular to the line of play, so I guess it is of the same bunker.............Anthony, please enlighten us.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I agree, one of the photos of the Doak bunker is along the line of play and one appears to perpendicular. I didn't take the photos. I just asked for comments.

Anthony

[paul cowley]

.....and I stand by my critique of Trey's photo in post #18, but its also tinged with a little Easter Island influence.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

To me, this is a Principal's Nose. It's two photos from The Old Course taken in 2005.









I also have in my possession a copy of a 1917 Ross hole drawing that shows what sure looks like a bold Principal's Nose.

The two modern ones on the thread are mundane. You can putt out of both of them.

Anthony

[Jeff Loh]

anthony
thanks for the great book!
is the 4th picture yale? (rulewich?)

gil hanse and george bahto have added a pricipals nose at sleepy hollow on the par 5 6th. not as severe as the old course but pretty cool from a visual and strategic standpoint. sorry no pictures.
jeff

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Jeff,

The third and fourth pictures are of Yale. I'm excited to see your course. I was down there in the spring and was with George when he painted out the bunkers on the 8th hole.

I hope that there is some boldness to your Principal's Nose.

Hope you enjoy the book.

Anthony

[Jeff Loh]

anthony
love the book. gave a couple away for christmas.
not a member at sleepy but have a friend who is quite generous with getting me on.
we actually played the eighth in the late spring when the bunkers were finished. man they have improved that hole with the removal of the trees on the right hand side. much less claustrophoic. new bunker on left side of fairway is fun too. just about in my range so it makes you think some from the tee. really like  their other work there as well. some of the new back tees are great and really change the strategy of the holes.
the new principals on the 6th is excellent and from my limited knowledge quite true to the original "intent"
take care
jeff

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Jeff,

I'm very happy to hear you deem my book worthy of giving away as presents. I'm assuming you like the people you gave it to. It makes a lovely gift for all occasions -- Arbor Day, weddings, graduations.

Signed copy is selling for $99.80 on Amazon! What the hell is that all about?

Anthony

[BCrosby]

Signed copy is selling for $99.80 on Amazon! What the hell is that all about?

Self bidding?

But on a slightly more serious note, let me re-ask my question from above.

Is a PN defined by its look or by its function. The more I think about it, the answer ought to be both. It's a conjunctive test.

A PN in the middle of an expansive fw is not functioning as a PN. Likewise a cl bunker that doesn't look like a PN, but functions like one, is not a PN either. No?

Bob

[TEPaul]

Jeff Loh:

Tell me something. Is that PN bunker that Hanse and Bahto added at Sleepy Hollow app. 75-80 yards from its green?

[Jeff Loh]

mr TEPaul (is that tom?)
that is correct. i think it makes sense as they moved the tee back on that hole. previously if you hit a big, solid cut around/over the trees you would have a mid-iron into the green. i played from the   new tee  in may and killed a drive and had 210-220 in. had to hit 5 wood hybrid as opposed to say 5 or 6 iron in the old days.
the new bunker comes into play if you decide to lay back (or miss) with the tee ball. you then have to think about going short, left or right of it on the second shot. i like it-there wasn't alot of thought on the second shot before the bunker was there.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The Principal's Nose bunkers at St Andrews are actually three bunkers, not two - you can't see them on Google Earth but you can see them on MSN live search. Better, have a look in Rich Goodale's 'Experience the Old Course.'

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

My two photos at the end of the first page show all three bunkers on The Old Course.

As far as positioning, The third and fourth or the original photos show the Yale bunker in relationship to the green, but it might be misleading. Superintendent Scott Ramsay told me he thinks the fairway may have extended much further left until drainage problems created a swamp on the left hand side.

My question is this: do either of the bunkers I show from Yale or Yeamans fit the bill as a Principal's Nose "restoration" on a Raynor course. Both designs seem way to placid.

Anthony

[TEPaul]

Jeff Loh:

That's my point entirely.

George Bahto has stated that PN bunkers by Macdonald/Raynor are always about 75-80 yards short of a green.

Obviously, on some holes of particular lengths that definitely leads me to question exactly what their strategic value and purpose was supposed to be and for whom?  

The answer I have come up with, and on close and careful consideration , is that even the best architects did not always use hazard features and such for only strategic reasons.

I think it was Geoff Shackelford who once said that people like most on here are always trying to assign some special strategic reason for each and every architectural feature including hazard features such as bunkers, when the truth is  back in that day some of those architects where simply trying to develop fill from as near as possible to build something else like a green.  

If that was true, then the converse is probably true too----eg sometimes they had excess fill hanging around a particular spot so why bother to cart if off the site or use it somewhere else at a distant part of the course if they could just dump it and use it right there?  

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I think there are two strategies that apply to the Principal's Nose. First, it can block out the view of the green or parts of the green from certain angles in the fairway. This is avoided by challenging hazards (rough) on the outside of the fairways.

The Raynor drawing for Fairyland, now Lookout Mountain, has a Principal's Nose on a 330-yard hole. Carrying a fairway bunker on the left produces a clear view of the hole. Going down the middle of the fairway brings the bunker into view, which appears to be about 70 yards short of the green.

Second, it is big problems for those who have duffed their drives -- Ron Forse referred to a bunker well short of a green at Newport CC as a bogey bunker and I think that is a fair description of the Principal Nose placement.

Anthony

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Sean,

Interesting. Again, Raynor, Macdonald and Banks adapated the strategy so their Redans are hardly ever blind like the original, so maybe the did not always have a preferred side. Going with what you say, however, may mean the left side of Yale's 17 was never all fairway and the goal was to hit the ball to the outside of the slight dogleg left.

With that strategy in mind then Donald Ross sure the hell drew up what would have been a true Principal's Nose had it been built. The original fourth hole drawing at Bretton Woods, now Mt. Washington Hotel (New Hampshire), shows a 366-yard dogleg left with two bunkers on the inside of the turn and what fits the bill as a Principal's Nose bunker comples that extends from 280 yards to 320 yards (yes a 40-yards.) The "pits" were to be cut into a slope and "faces raised with a mound effect." Challenging the inside hazards gives the best angle in to the green. Very cool indeed. Way, way more bold than any of the modern versions depicted on this thread.

Anthony

[Jeff Loh]

anthony/tePaul

regarding "placement". interesting point. maybe WE assign too much thought(in the archietects mind)  to where the hazards are? but at least if it was done for the sake of economy they created a pretty funky bunker. i think it also brings up the question of 17 at National Golf Links. Though I doubt anyone would mistake that hazard for a principals nose it does serve A) to obscure the second shot and B) make you think off the tee as to where your tee ball should end up. usually short but left or right works too if you want to bomb it. now i've never thought about this before but could have CBM "adopted" the "concept/strategy" from 16 at the old course? could be a little kooky but you guys got me  thinking....
jeff
ps  my hard drive crashed so i'm a little sporadic here for the next few days

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Jeff:

In The Evangelist of Golf, George Bahto says 17 at National is a Leven Hole built on a concept from a course no longer in existence. The strategy called for a possible carry of the hazard that is not possible on any of the Raynor Principal's Nose bunkers that I know of.

By the way, you were a little sporadic before the hard drive crashed.

Anthony

[George_Bahto]

......  but Tony, Jeff's driver is not at all sporatic

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

George,

Is that so? That means you guys would be deadly in a scramble. He'd kill his drive and you'd approach with the best of them, making up and downs from all over.

Anthony