[JMorgan]

Sean, if you do ever make it to Philly, Lancaster is definitely worth the trip.   (As for Merion, I wouldn't know but I've heard it's ok.)

And with all the great restaurants in Philly, make sure those guys take you for more than a cheese steak and a trip to South Street!   (Good God, Wayne, the guy is coming thousands of miles... Le Bec Fin or bust.)
   

[Dan Boerger]

Dan,

I like how you think...about golf and cheesesteaks.  We ought to get out there together and submit to these life's necessities.

Wany - Fully agree! Let's make is priority before the leave fall from the trees. I had a near "out of body" experience at Chinks this Spring. -Dan

[Dan Boerger]

Wayne - Didn't mean to incorrectly spell your name ... too much coffee too early. -Dan

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

So....what is the first Ross course in PA?

Steve,

That would almost certainly be Gulph Mills in 1916, although I do need to check the date of the original Sunnybrook, as well as Rolling Rock and Kahkwa in western PA, but I believe they were 1917.

[Jerry Kluger]

Go to Atlantic City and get a cheese steak at White House Subs - play ACCC and then have dinner at Chef Volas - if there is any chance that you can move the next day then get over to Galloway or Hidden Creek.

[wsmorrison]

Le Bec Fin used to be my favorite restaurant in the world.  However, even ten or so years ago, the heights that restaurant would reach were when Georges Perrier was in the kitchen, not his brother or another chef.  Today he runs several restaurants (Brasserie Perrier, Mia and Georges) and I haven't been back for a while.  However, the Bar Lyonnais downstairs from LBF is a marvelous spot for after show drinks and/or supper.  My favorite restaurant in America and maybe anywhere is Vetri.  A must-go restaurant, the equivalent of a Doak 10.  Interestingly, it is in the same location that LBF started in.

Jerry,

I'm not a shore person, but many I know in the know rave about White House Subs.  I'll have to make the trip next time I play ACCC.

Dan,

Have your people call my people and we'll set something up.  Better yet...let's get it done ourselves.  My people just quit.  

[JESII]

I would play Hidden Creek 8 out of 10 versus Galloway...

And similar numbers for HVCC versus Rolling Green or Manufacturer's...maybe 8 - 1 - 1 with all three of them in the mix...

[Jerry Kluger]

Galloway is a course which should be seen because it is really exceptional for Fazio - a good number of quality holes without all the glitz.  Hidden Creek is exceptional with C & C  demonstrating what innovative architecture looks like - I wonder how many golfers that are not part of the GCA crowd appreciate those greens or find them too extreme.

[Jason Mandel]

I would play Hidden Creek 8 out of 10 versus Galloway...

Jim,

That is a bold statement.  I have played Hidden Creek 3 times now, and to be honest with you I have grown more appreciation for the course each time I've played it.  I really think its a top notch course.

I have only played Galloway once, almost a year to the day, with a hurricane coming up the coast.  

The courses really are like apples and oranges, two totally different animals.  The only real negatives  I found with Galloway was the routing, and the severity of some of the greens.  Otherwise, I absolutely loved the course.  

I think Hidden Creek would be a great place to play every day, with Galloway a pefect 2nd course.  I think I'd have a tough time playing Galloway everyday because of how tough it is.

What were your reasons for preferring HC over Galloway so drastically?

Jason

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim is so preferential to HC because he is still fondly and sentimentally remembering the very first time he played there.....

..with me.

So, all that aside, I'd play 6 Galloway, 4 HC, possibly even 7-3, even with the balky routing.  

I just think there are way more holes at Galloway that get the blood pumping, including the wonderful opener.  

Hidden Creek is more of a meditative exercise, where you make a lot of bogeys but aren't sure why.   I can appreciate that aspect, but can't point out more than a handful of holes as great.   I guess it's a bit like Pinehurst #2 in that respect, only even more low-key.

[Dan Herrmann]

Hey Philly guys:  What ever happened @/to Moselem Springs?  I think it used to be ranked, and I remember the(back?) one nine was very good.

Moselem Springs is in Berks County, a George Fazio design.  I've played it once, and found it to be a very good 1960's era golf course.   They, like most clubs in Berks, have been having challenges getting members.  

Interesting club history too - if I remember correctly, it was fonded by the owner of the Reading Eagle newspaper, who wasn't happy with the goings-on at his original club (Reading?).  He ran Moselem like a common-man's Augusta with strict rules but he ran it well.

It held the 1968 US Women's Open.

Honestly, we have an embarassment of riches with golf courses here in SE Pennsylvania.  Couses like Rolling Green, HV, Lehigh, Mannys, Lancaster, etc would be the best in town in many cities.  

[wsmorrison]

The most surprising thing of all is that Sully elects HVCC over Rolling Green and Manufacturers on an 8:1:1 ratio!  Wow!  HVCC is very special and the return maintenance practices almost unique in American golf.  However, I understand that RGGC is much better maintained these days (of course, not while I was a member and the tree issue is disturbing:  trees that were taken out have been replanted ) and Manufacturers is on a roll, both architecturally (restoration) and maintenance (tree removal and IMM).

My personal split would be something like HVCC (27 holes) 4, Rolling Green 4 and Manufacturers 2.  For full disclosure, I know RGGC very well (~400 plays), HVCC fairly well (~40 plays) and Manufacturers the least well known (~4 plays).  

[JESII]

I thought I'd get some lips flapping with those statements...

Obviously I'll accept the accusation of homerism with my HVCC numbers. I like MGC and RGGC plenty, but all too often when I venture outside the boundry of HVCC I return very pleased with what I've got there. Remember, maintenance is every bit as important to me as architecture when I am going somewhere to play.


HC versus Gallowy...I'll stand by it. Galloway is certainly more dramatic, but to me it's like asking, "how many times can you ride Space Mountain?" Hidden Creek is more like 'the hand up Mona Lisa's skirt' (name the movie for an extra point), producing a very subtle charm that makes me want to play there an awful lot...

[Dan Herrmann]

what - they're RE-planting trees at Rolling Green?  Say it isn't so!

Shoot, my club French Creek, which only has 4-5 trees in play on the corse, is removing trees on the periphy to improve air movement and sunlight onto the #3 and #8 greens.

[Dave Maberry]

Steve and Mike,
 According to
"Golf Has Never Failed Me": Lu Lu CC North Hills, 1912; Wanango CC Reno, 1913; Rolling Rock CC 1917; Kahwka Club 1918; Gulph Mills GC 1919.
"Discovering Donald Ross": same as above plus Philadelphia CC- Flourtown 1914;
Both sources list Pocono Manor as 1919 remodel, any more luck with this Mike?

[Mike_Trenham]

Best Modern Courses in Philadelphia

Biderman - Wilmington is part of Philly they just don't admit it
Stonewall - North
Stonewall - South
White Manor
Hidden Creek

Disclosure

Have yet to play Applebrook or Glen Mills

[Powell Arms]

Just throwing in a homer vote for the old course at Philly Cricket.

My five would be, or as Mike accurately puts in the three after PV and Merion East,

PV
Merion East
Huntington Valley
Philly Cricket
Aronimink

Wow, what a great sampling of golden age architects.  Of course, the other names mentioned are great if this trip is to be one that is more focused on a specific architect.  Heck, why limit it to five rounds?  Two different 18's per day would be easily accomplished.

And as for cheesesteaks, Real Pizza in Narberth deserves a nod before going to Mama's, and John's Roast Pork in S Philly is a must for the steak or roast pork with brocolli rabe.

[Mike_Cirba]

Steve and Mike,
 According to
"Golf Has Never Failed Me": Lu Lu CC North Hills, 1912; Wanango CC Reno, 1913; Rolling Rock CC 1917; Kahwka Club 1918; Gulph Mills GC 1919.
"Discovering Donald Ross": same as above plus Philadelphia CC- Flourtown 1914;
Both sources list Pocono Manor as 1919 remodel, any more luck with this Mike?

Dave,

The LuLu atttribution in GHNFM is wrong.

Gulph Mills was 1916 and I think Tom Paul can vouch for that.

I don't know Wanango but I'll bet $5 that it came later....they say they opened their doors in 1914, but seem to rely on what the Donald Ross Society has for a date on their website (I just peeked).  I'd be surprised if it were that early, but perhaps Michael Fay can weigh in on what documentation they have.

I've done quite a bit of research on Pocono Manor and can't find a single shred of evidence that Donald Ross was there...not even anecdotal...just the club reiterating over the years that they were designed by Ross so much that I think it's been taken for granted the past couple of decades.

We do know that William Flynn designed today's holes 7 thru 16 and that they opened around 1924.   We also know that the course had bunkering, but those bunkers were left fallow over time.  The other holes made up the original nine (including the dormant par three between today's 1 & 2) and were opened in 1912.   I'm pretty certain that it was designed by one Samuel Allen (who also did Moorestown Field Club in NJ, and possibly the first nine or 18 at Buck Hill Falls), but have put it all together in a paper and sent it to a few experts for their feedback.  

[wsmorrison]

Powell, Powell, Powell.  Real Pizza in Narberth?  Come on, mate.  I know we're neighbors and all but their food is pretty lame, especially the pizza.  Greeks can't do pizza and cheesesteaks, it has been genetically proven  

Now for roast beef and pork, well you've got to go to Cut Above Deli near Tommy Paul in Newtown Square on West Chester Pike. Awesome.  The Roast Beef is almost as good as Nick's down in South Philly.  Its 20th and Jackson (2149 s 20th to be exact)

Roast Beef combo (w/ provolone) overboard (gravy):



Real connoisseurs get the "ends" which have more of the marinade infused in the meat.

[Powell Arms]

Powell, Powell, Powell.  Real Pizza in Narberth?  Come on, mate.  I know we're neighbors and all but their food is pretty lame, especially the pizza.  Greeks can't do pizza and cheesesteaks, it has been genetically proven  

Now for roast beef and pork, well you've got to go to Cut Above Deli near Tommy Paul in Newtown Square on West Chester Pike. Awesome.  The Roast Beef is almost as good as Nick's down in South Philly.  Its 20th and Jackson (2149 s 20th to be exact)

Roast Beef combo (w/ provolone) overboard (gravy):



Real connoisseurs get the "ends" which have more of the marinade infused in the meat.

Wayne,

please see my thread on this cheesesteak ranking at beef on a bun atlas . com . Completely agree on the pizza.

Nice touch, with the picture of a sandwich!  Now that's serious.



But back to the topic, what a wonderful, world class golfing and dining trip.  Heck, I may take my next vacation at home.

[JESII]

Wayne,

That's really gross.

Jim

[Mike_Cirba]

Vietnames Beef Noodle Soup, aka "Pho" (pronounced "Fuh?", as in the t-shirt...

[Dan Herrmann]

Philly and beef sandwiches?

Sorry, Wayne - Buffalo NY rules here - Beef on Weck is heaven and it's really only available in Buffalo:

[Mike_Cirba]

This gives a little better perspective of some of the condiments one can use to individualize their Pho, although some users are complete minimalists.



Virtually every bowl of Pho I've ever eaten has been at least a Doak 5, but Pho 75 off Adams Ave. is probably a Doak 8 or 9 and there's a place in Lancaster called "Rice and Noodles" that's a Doak 10 and is probably the Sand Hills of Pho, simply because Lancaster PA, like Mullen, NE, is a very unlikely place to find utter perfection.

I've found this site useful as a complete users guide with some user ratings;

www.phofever.com

[jim_lewis]

Wayne:

You mentioned the Merion Clubhouse on your list of favorite cheesesteaks. I ordered cheesesteaks the last two times I was there and was disappointed both times. It has been 3 years since I was at Merion, but I plan to be back up there in late September. Have they improved their cheesesteaks? Have you had one there recently?  We will be staying at the Radnor. Which of the cheesesteak joints places you mentioned is fairly close?

Jim

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