Calling Mike Cirba and his mobile camera

[Mike_Cirba]

So, based on that how do you like this evolved look?

Or do you need to get in there and feel and taste them too?  

Tom,

Interesting..

Remember last November when I started a post called "I was wrong" and went on to explain that the bunkers at Merion were evolving in a positive way?

Well, the pics of the couple of sheared bunkers look exactly like virtually every bunker on the course looked when I made that statement.   It was late in the year...harvest time I guess, and evidently shearing time, as well.   The fescue and bluegrass was taken down to the shorthair nubbings, and you could see where the sheer grass faces had started to go bald in spots.   I thought it looked really pretty cool and posted as such.

Then, I visit a few months back when Mike Y. was in town and I see the bunkers again with Don King-like do's and I say to myself, "people are going to think I'm an idiot" for suggesting that they are getting more like their old selves.  

So, I'll stand by half my original statement with a caveat.   I think the bunkers CAN evolve in a positive way if they keep the grass growing under wraps (I can see the flymowing budget quadrupling) and then periodically go out there with rhinoceri and have them charge their tusks (is that plural?) into the faces repeatedly.

That oughtta keep 'em looking good.  

[Mike Hendren]

Tom Paul,

Other than the flagstick, besides the bunkers name one other thing in that photo that resembles Royal County Down.  

Mike

[TEPaul]

Didn't I just say it is the grass bunker surrounds in that photo that look similar to some of the grass bunker surrounds of RCD?

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

First of all, even when cut short (as they're apparently starting to do now for some reason) those bunker surrounds at Merion East look absolutely nothing like they did before the bunker project or at any other time in Merion's evolution.

Merion East's bunkers always had much more flashed sand faces with a much thinner sod strip on the surrounds.

What they built in the last bunker project were far heavier rolled earthen surrounds with sod lapped over and stapled down.

This does not mean I'm criticizing the look of the Merion bunkers now but they look nothing like what Merion ever had before.

The bunker surrounds they had in the beginning didn't look like the bunker surrounds they had in the 1930s and the bunker surrounds they had in the 1930s and 1940s didn't look like the bunker surrounds that they had in the 1970s and up until they did them again in the last ten years.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I agree that even when cut short the bunkers at Merion do not look like the bunkers at Merion during any time in their previous history, much less 1930.  

What I said was that when cut short, a lot of the bushiness and thick Phil Spectorish "Wall of Grass" that they've been plagued with since the re-do looks much improved because you can see where they are getting a bit more battered, rugged, and worn.   That's what I mean when I say they are evolving in a positive way and the whole thrust of my "I Was Wrong" posting from last November was simply that I had to admit they were wearing away quicker than I ever dreamed was possible given how impermeable and impenetrable they seemed (especially when hidden under long 70's Fro's), and how much sod and plasticine wrap I saw going under them during construction.

I wasn't wrong about them never looking like that before, or that they seemed out of character with the understated, genteel, classic, and elegant look of the place.   I was wrong in thinking that they wouldn't wear away quickly, and I believe I wrote that I suspected they were getting a little manual help from the maintenance staff in that regard.  

[Paul_Turner]

The two Mikes are right,  the whole bunker configuration for that green looks wrong and overdone;  nevermind the shaggy look.  

[JESII]

Less the two front bunkers, does it look overdone?

I can say, it's a pretty intimidating hole for a basic three shot par 5...and did you know...the fairway actually moves from side to side while your second shot is in the air? Honest!

[TEPaul]

I don't think there's anything about the bunkers around that green that looks overdone. Other than those two front bunkers that were a quick 1930 inclusion and then removal that green and its bunker arrangement has always looked like that. That green site would look pretty bland to me without those bunkers surrounding the sides and rear. In my opinion, there are some on this website that got into an overblown critical mode regarding Merion East and they just don't seem to know how to let it go. All in all that golf course and its architecture is just spectacular. An American gem, in fact.

[Mike_Cirba]

I don't think there's anything about the bunkers around that green that looks overdone. Other than those two front bunkers that were a quick 1930 inclusion and then removal that green and its bunker arrangement has always looked like that. That green site would look pretty bland to me without those bunkers surrounding the sides and rear. In my opinion, there are some on this website that got into an overblown critical mode regarding Merion East and they just don't seem to know how to let it go. All in all that golf course and its architecture is just spectacular. An American gem, in fact.

Tom,

You do know I'm half kidding you, right?  

I agree that the fronting bunkers need to go but what makes them look overblown is the shaggy hair.   Shorn down they don't look bad at all.

btw, we were driving around today looking at places to get married next year and I have to say that the bunkering at French Creek and Stonewall is looking absolutely ungodly good.

p.s.  C'mon...I know you like humor on this website and I thought the Phil Spectorish "Wall of Grass" combined with the "70s 'Fro" would have at least gotten a chuckle!  

[Mike Hendren]

I say it still reminds me of a Furby:



Mike

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Hendren,

I think if you compare the bunker edges in the pics of the fronting ones on 8, 13, and 10 they look much better shorn short than say the ones on 4 that remind you of said Furbie..

I'm betting they play a lot better, too.

The bottom line to me is simply;

Merion is so close to absolute perfection that anything that's not stands out 50-fold.  

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I'll take the humor. As you know I think humor almost never hurts on here.  

I was in the process of writing another long post about the entire history of the Merion bunker project ON HERE and how it got really out of control amongst some but I decided to can it.

Enough has been written, and certainly enough misinformation has been written on here about Merion's bunker project, about Merion's architectural history and about Merion period.

I think the thing that set off some on this website was simply the fact that the club hired Fazio. From that moment on things got totally out of control on here and to me that was sad and remains sad.

Before GOLFCLUBALTAS.com ever even existed and before Fazio I went over there with Kye Goalby and met with some on the committee and such. This was before the bunker project with Fazio/Macdonald.

I still believe what Goalby said that day was really accurate and was the way to go.

Basically he just suggested they completely redo the drainage and sanding (which had totally failed) and simply fix the surrounds on an individual "as needed" basis---eg in other words do not take them apart and reform them as far out as they did. (in a real way this is the way Merion's maintenance had always treated their bunker surrounds).

It seems pretty ironic now that little by little they seem to be trying to work their way back to making those grass surrounds and the sand "upsweeps" to them look something like they once did.

But I'll admit here and now that I just don't know enough about architectural construction to know if they can ever do something like that with what they have now.

It may be that the angles of the sand surfaces up to the grass surrounds are too different than what they used to have to make this possible. In other words, they just may be too steep now and basically too top heavy.

They can continue to chip away at the low sides of the sod surrounds on the faces but this may create increasing problems with the stabilization of the top lips, so in a sense they will be right back to where they were that way before the bunker project except this time it will be worse because the fact is those top lips are far heavier and far more sod content then they ever were before in Merion's history.

I realize the top grass surrounds are different now then anything they ever had before but frankly I like them (to me they look like bunkers that have evolved over the years through constant sand kick and the natural grassing up of that buildup on top) and I'm also mindful that this is about the fourth iteration in Merion's history in the "look" of the grass surrounds with Merion's bunkers.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

There's another element to the history of Merion's bunkers that I find to be far more interesting, particularly as it's perceived on here.

A lot of this I've gotten from Ron Prichard who frankly I believe if the club is ever going to consult an architect from hereon out should at least start by consulting him.

Here's why:

He thinks that Merion's bunkers are probably the prototype of the basic American style sand upsweep bunkers.

Think about that. If that is true, and I'm certainly not completely convinced at this point that it is, it would make those bunkers really significant and famous in the entire history of American architecture because they may be the first in America to look like they did.

The first question in my mind if that is true would be where in the hell Wilson or Wilson/Flynn even got that idea for that style of inland bunkering.

But that question aside, and assuming that is true, I can tell you something else that seems to me to be a misperception on this website and elsewhere.

So many people seem to act like the way the Merion East bunkers used to look before the recent bunker project was completely unique.

I can tell you it wasn't.

I've been playing golf at almost all the courses in this region and elsewhere for a lot of years and there were old bunkers all over this region that looked virtually identical to Merion's bunkers.

And if it is true that Merion East's bunkers really were the prototype for the sand flashed up American sand bunker why should it be otherwise that so many other courses had bunkers that looked like Merion's?

Ron Prichard has stated that Merion East and their bunkers were like the ultimate architectural classroom. Ron wrote a letter to Merion he still has on file maybe 15-20 years ago stating that fact. (that letter is probably something like his futuristic letter he wrote on distance to the USGA way back when).

Maybe that's true and if it is, in my opinion, it's simply because Merion created the prototypical American sand flashed bunker way back when and for that reason alone those old "White Faces of Merion" were famous.

But did they look uniquely different than plenty of other old bunkers around here or in America?

No way and no how, and I can guarantee you that because I've played so many courses over the years and I've seen and played all those old bunkers that looked so much like Merion's prototypes.

If someone on here is going to tell me that's not true and that the look of Merion East's bunkers were totally unique I'm going to tell them they're full of crap and they just don't know what they're talking about or else they're simply unnecessarily glorifying Merion East's old bunkers.

The reason Merion East's old bunkers were so famous is simply because they were Merion's. And that very well may be, as Ron said, where that generic American bunker style and look began way back when.

On the other hand, there're a lot of good researchers on this website, and if any one of them can produce photos of this type and style of inland American bunker BEFORE Merion East then that story and perception is going to pretty much go out the window, isn't it?  

That's the kind of thing this website should get into for it to be producive.

What this site should not do is get into inaccurately glorifying the look of Merion's old bunkers as totally unique and catterwalling against the club constantly for what they've done in the last few years.

I have little doubt that the club probably doesn't know every single detail of the history and evolution of their bunkers but either does GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.

Perhaps they should try to work together on information research and just leave it at that.  

[Adam Clayman]

I would still argue that the fronting bunkers are good GCA. They are centerline. Cause thought and create options for strategy.
Max Behrian, if you will?
Their low profile is a nice juxtapose to the disrespected penal bunkers sides and rear. Furby?

[TEPaul]

Adam Clayman offered:

"I would still argue that the fronting bunkers are good GCA. They are centerline. Cause thought and create options for strategy.
Max Behrian, if you will?
Their low profile is a nice juxtapose to the disrespected penal bunkers sides and rear."

Mr Clayman, you are out of order. Now sit down and shut up or you will be in contempt of court and fined accordingly and/or thrown in the slammer.

You know, I've often wondered how Merion handles those that say anything critical about the course or club or confront Merion in any way.

Yesterday Wayno hit a real screamer on #2 right and I saw the ball bounce and fire right accross Ardmore Ave like a bullet from a big gun.

Can you imagine if Mrs FancyPants was driving down Ardmore Ave with her three and a half kids in her SUV talking on her cell phone and she ran smack dab into Wayno's bullet?

Likely outcome would've probably been some serious maiming and killing.

So what does Merion do about that kind of thing that probably happens at least once a month if not more?

I suspect the Merion GC Maintenance Swat team has that SUV, Mrs FancyPants, her three and a half dead or maimed children in their compactor and squashed into the size of medium sized metal box before the cops arrive and dumped out in the Atlantic Ocean off the NJ coast before the sun sets----and Mrs FancyPants, her children, her SUV and her cell phone too becomes just another missing persons statistic that really does seem unusually high around here compared to other cities.

[Paul_Turner]

The French know how to maintain a golf course with steep sand faced bunkers... St Germain in Paris (Stuart Hallet's pics):

They maintain clean edges for greenside bunkers but shaggy edges for fairway bunkers.

Imagine how great Merion would look and play if the water was turned off for a bit and the rough cut back.

[Adam Clayman]

Since I've been sent to bed with no supper I'll throw this out...

The clean bunker edge is similar to fairway mowlines in the context that it makes for an easier shot, in the mind of the good golfer. Craggy looking edges creates inexactness, and therefore uncertainty, that should be part of the mind's eye.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

Thanks for taking the time to write all that.   I do know that some of us get frustrating with our flippant comments and sometimes I can't resist a easy stab at humor.

The thing you probably don't know is that I completely agree with virtually everything you wrote...about our knee-jerk reactions, about turning the club off from listening to other voices (if that was possible), about the present faces and surrounds evolving and looking somewhat better but still uncertain whether the final outcome will be positive or if they'll have to take some remediative action.  

I'm also on board with the Prichard theory...damn, I wish there were more pics available in some of the old magazines because we do know that people like Samuel Allen and Tillinghast were speaking of "clamshell" bunkering as early as 1911, and we know that they were trying to do it based on what they found overseas.   In fact, Tillinghast said just that about Allen's bunkering inspiration for Moorestown.  

I also agree that Merion's bunkers weren't totally unique at the time of their re-do.   I think Philly Country Club, especially after McNulty/Forse's project, looked amazingly like the Merion bunkers we really liked.  So did others in the area, but I think what perhaps Merion had that a lot of the others didn't is that grassy splashes in the interiors, with lovegrass, broom, et.al., and that really distinguished Merion in that regard.   However, just from a shaping standpoint, and a stylistic standpoint, I'd agree that a lot of Flynn bunkers in the region bore the Merion characteristics to one degree or another, and some other architects like Meehan and Findlay and even some of Gordon's later work was iterative of the Merion "upswept" style.

I'm not 100% sure that Merion was the exact first course that bore those style bunkers in the US, but I'm virtually certain that it did come out of the Philadelphia school, and from men like Wilson (or Allen?) (or Tillinghast?...have we studied Shawnee's bunkers much?), who were inspired by inland courses with similar bunkering in Great Britain.  

[Rich Goodale]

Paul T

Great pictures (from Stuart) of PSG.

You make a very good point about the differences between fairway and greenside bunkers.  Shagginess in the former is acceptable, but cleanness in the latter is essential.  Shaggy faced greenside bunkers are no less reprehensible than US Open impenetrable greenside rough.  Both should be cryit doon.

You also make a controversial statement about Merion's "maintenance meld" with which I agree.  In fact I agree with that statement for just about every great US course that I have played, with the possible exceptions of Shinnecock Hills and Pacific Dunes.  In summary:

"Let Merion be Merion!"  There is a truly great course underneath all that facial hair and thick rough just waiting to be released.

Thought for the day:

Is there ANY American course that demonstrates the "John Kirk Effect" (ball roll interestingly) as well as the average reasonably good GBI course?

If so, name them.  If not, Why?

Rich

[JESII]

Richard,

If the bottom end of the top 100 is considered "GREAT"; then I am going to play one right now...Huntingdon Valley, much praised on here, more for its Maintenance than its arch' but I think both are pretty awesome. Scott Anderson is our superintendent and the primary reason I would prefer to play here than just about anywhere else if you were going to throw a dart at the calendar...

[Sean_A]

Paul T

Great pictures (from Stuart) of PSG.

You make a very good point about the differences between fairway and greenside bunkers.  Shagginess in the former is acceptable, but cleanness in the latter is essential.  Shaggy faced greenside bunkers are no less reprehensible than US Open impenetrable greenside rough.  Both should be cryit doon.

You also make a controversial statement about Merion's "maintenance meld" with which I agree.  In fact I agree with that statement for just about every great US course that I have played, with the possible exceptions of Shinnecock Hills and Pacific Dunes.  In summary:

"Let Merion be Merion!"  There is a truly great course underneath all that facial hair and thick rough just waiting to be released.

Thought for the day:

Is there ANY American course that demonstrates the "John Kirk Effect" (ball roll interestingly) as well as the average reasonably good GBI course?

If so, name them.  If not, Why?

Rich

Rich and/or Paul T

Why is it good to have shaved greenside bunkers, but hairy fairway bunkers?  I am inclined to think that shaved all round is best if a course is f&f.  Perhaps this is why I am a big fan of pot/gathering bunkers.  Plus, the bunkers are less conspicuous, but I fear I am in the minority where this issue is concerned.  

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

I said "acceptable" not "good."

As you know (and probably learned from me ) shagginess in any fairway bunker is acceptable if and only if it is on the high side (i.e. not impeding any gathering event).

Chow

Rich

[TEPaul]

"...damn, I wish there were more pics available in some of the old magazines because we do know that people like Samuel Allen and Tillinghast were speaking of "clamshell" bunkering as early as 1911, and we know that they were trying to do it based on what they found overseas.  In fact, Tillinghast said just that about Allen's bunkering inspiration for Moorestown."

MikeC:

Then I think we need to take a very close look at Samuel Allen, his life and times and wherebabouts before the teens. The same can be said about some of the others before the teens such as Emmet, Leeds and certainly Tillinghast. All of this in relation to that kind of early Merion bunker style of course.  

[Paul_Turner]

Paul T

Great pictures (from Stuart) of PSG.

You make a very good point about the differences between fairway and greenside bunkers.  Shagginess in the former is acceptable, but cleanness in the latter is essential.  Shaggy faced greenside bunkers are no less reprehensible than US Open impenetrable greenside rough.  Both should be cryit doon.

You also make a controversial statement about Merion's "maintenance meld" with which I agree.  In fact I agree with that statement for just about every great US course that I have played, with the possible exceptions of Shinnecock Hills and Pacific Dunes.  In summary:

"Let Merion be Merion!"  There is a truly great course underneath all that facial hair and thick rough just waiting to be released.

Thought for the day:

Is there ANY American course that demonstrates the "John Kirk Effect" (ball roll interestingly) as well as the average reasonably good GBI course?

If so, name them.  If not, Why?

Rich

Rich and/or Paul T

Why is it good to have shaved greenside bunkers, but hairy fairway bunkers?  I am inclined to think that shaved all round is best if a course is f&f.  Perhaps this is why I am a big fan of pot/gathering bunkers.  Plus, the bunkers are less conspicuous, but I fear I am in the minority where this issue is concerned.  

Ciao

Sean

I don't think it's a hard and fast rule.  Just an approach to maintenance that works at St Germain.  The average golfer probably finds this approach more agreable: if they're in thick shaggy rough surrounding a fairway bunker they can at least give the ball a good whack but greenside it's just too difficult.

At St Germain the shagginess is only on the top side, the sand faces are steep so players shouldn't find the thick rough often.  And I think it's ok to be completely 'dead' in a bunker once in a while.

How much ground game is lost at Merion with all that green rough everywhere?  I bet there are all kinds of small rolls that you can't see because its covered in 3 inches of rough.

[Sean_A]

Paul T

Great pictures (from Stuart) of PSG.

You make a very good point about the differences between fairway and greenside bunkers.  Shagginess in the former is acceptable, but cleanness in the latter is essential.  Shaggy faced greenside bunkers are no less reprehensible than US Open impenetrable greenside rough.  Both should be cryit doon.

You also make a controversial statement about Merion's "maintenance meld" with which I agree.  In fact I agree with that statement for just about every great US course that I have played, with the possible exceptions of Shinnecock Hills and Pacific Dunes.  In summary:

"Let Merion be Merion!"  There is a truly great course underneath all that facial hair and thick rough just waiting to be released.

Thought for the day:

Is there ANY American course that demonstrates the "John Kirk Effect" (ball roll interestingly) as well as the average reasonably good GBI course?

If so, name them.  If not, Why?

Rich

Rich and/or Paul T

Why is it good to have shaved greenside bunkers, but hairy fairway bunkers?  I am inclined to think that shaved all round is best if a course is f&f.  Perhaps this is why I am a big fan of pot/gathering bunkers.  Plus, the bunkers are less conspicuous, but I fear I am in the minority where this issue is concerned.  

Ciao

Sean

I don't think it's a hard and fast rule.  Just an approach to maintenance that works at St Germain.  The average golfer probably finds this approach more agreable: if they're in thick shaggy rough surrounding a fairway bunker they can at least give the ball a good whack but greenside it's just too difficult.

At St Germain the shagginess is only on the top side, the sand faces are steep so players shouldn't find the thick rough often.  And I think it's ok to be completely 'dead' in a bunker once in a while.

How much ground game is lost at Merion with all that green rough everywhere?  I bet there are all kinds of small rolls that you can't see because its covered in 3 inches of rough.

The one aspect of "eyebrows" that I am not keen on is if a ball  gets hungup in this shag.  It is quite easy to find oneself without any stance - especially on the high side of deep bunkers.  I know its the rub of the green and all that, but I don't find it fun to have no stance for shot.  I spose the same can be said of some lies in pot bunkers and if truth be told this is a weakness of that sort of bunkering.  In either case the problem is fairly rare, but it seems to happen a few times in a round when it does happen.  Its enough to irk me, not unlike finding oneself without a putt at the hole while on the green.  IMO once is a round is ok, more than this suggests a problem with design and/or maintenance.  

I am not convinced the Merion eyebrows are appropriate for a parkland setting, but it is a bit different.  As you well know, I am against any sort of bunkering near water and Merion's example pictured earlier is no exception as far as I am concerned.    

Ciao