[wsmorrison]

I visited a circa 1914 course in St. Louis that has a 185-yard par 3 16th hole.  After playing the hole, you have to walk back the entire length of the hole and play the 17th from tees adjacent to the 16th tee.  I don't know if the hole was subsequently rerouted or redesigned (I suspect not), but whatever the case, this is a particularly poor routing feature as it exists today.  

Playing in 103 degree heat and 95% humidity didn't make the extra walk that much fun a couple of days ago.  I think this is an egregious error under any circumstances, especially given the average quality of the 17th (nice green complex though).  The 18th is a nice, but not great, finishing hole.  I cannot understand what the architect was thinking when laying out this course.

[JESII]

I thought you were starting a thread about playing a course you hadn't in a real long time...and your opinion had changed...

[CHrisB]

Tobacco Road also has this feature, as the 18th tee is next
to the 17th tee. Salishan in Oregon has a "double-retrace"
feature, where a revision resulted in the direction of a par 3
being reversed, so that now you have to walk up the hill to
hit the tee shot, down the hill to the green, and back up the
hill to the next tee.

There are also at least two courses (Links at Lighthouse
Sound in MD and Mill Creek in TX) that have consecutive
holes sharing the same double green(!). No excuse for not
knowing where the pin is...

[Kyle Harris]

Schuylkill CC has this from the 6th to 7th holes. I don't much mind the walk as both are highlights of the first nine.

[wsmorrison]

I would have accepted the practice more so if it meant that some excellence resulted in the decision.  This was not the case.  Frankly, I thought doubling back was a rare case.  Maybe not as rare as I thought, though the examples mentioned seem to be modern courses.  Carts lessen the egregious nature of the routing.  This course was designed in 1914 and adds an extra hole of walking in a very hot/humid locale.

[Mike Nuzzo]

There are often many places to fit a par 3 - especially if the 16th was nothing special.  On this site it would have had to come several holes earlier - unless the 16th was a short playing due north.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

The 16th is a pretty poor example of a Redan hole with an ever so small left to right slope (near top left corner).  The course features back to back par 3s earlier in the round; the excellent 2nd and 3rd holes.

All in all, I found the course to be very interesting indeed with some truly excellent holes, some solid holes and a few mediocre ones.  A very worthwhile study and enjoyable experience.  It is a magnificent club with an outstanding and courteous professional staff.

[David Schofield]

Tobacco Road also has this feature, as the 18th tee is next
to the 17th tee.

Though not exactly on the same topic, the trek from the 14th to 15th hole at Tobacco Road is also quite odd...

[James Bennett]

Deal #13 par 3 is similar, (I think it is Deal, if not it is the more famous Royal course in the North of Scotland).  The tee for the par 3 and the following par 4 are very adjacent.  The hole is perpendicular to the rest of the return to clubhouse holes.

James B

[Phil McDade]

I visited a circa 1914 course in St. Louis (Ran had a writeup on the course, but now it is missing from the current list)

Wayne:

Check Courses by Country, USA, listed under Sa....not St......

[mike_beene]

13 at Colonial in Ft Worth.I dont think it originally retraced,but the flood control changes have altered this hole.

[Andy Troeger]

8 and 9 at Redlands Mesa also have this feature with the tees right next to each other. I liked both holes well enough, the 8th green is in a little canyon that would be awkward no matter what I think. The 9th is probably better for having the additional length. It is certainly awkward and let to a fair wait on the tee of the 8th hole with carts all over the place.

[Jim Nugent]

I visited a circa 1914 course in St. Louis (Ran had a writeup on the course, but now it is missing from the current list) that has a 185-yard par 3 16th hole.  After playing the hole, you have to walk back the entire length of the hole and play the 17th from tees adjacent to the 16th tee.  I don't know if the hole was subsequently rerouted or redesigned (I suspect not), but whatever the case, this is a particularly poor routing feature as it exists today.  

Playing in 103 degree heat and 95% humidity didn't make the extra walk that much fun a couple of days ago.  I think this is an egregious error under any circumstances, especially given the average quality of the 17th (nice green complex though).  The 18th is a nice, but not great, finishing hole.  I cannot understand what the architect was thinking when laying out this course.

Hint:  this course has back to back par 3s and par 5s earlier in the round and has a par of 71.

Wayne, you threw me on two points.  I still see the course profile...and I'm not aware of back to back par 5's anywhere there.  Unless you are not talking about St. Louis CC?  

[wsmorrison]

Oops.  Sorry about the miscues.  I made the corrections.

I missed the Courses by Country listing (Sa vs. St.) and I don't know why I put the back to back par 5s in there...bad editing and very tired?  I didn't even realize I wrote that until you pointed it out.  Hmmm...strange.  

[Tom_Doak]

I can't remember which hole it is at Royal New Kent -- the par-3 on the back, maybe #12 -- anyway, after #11 you take a path through the woods and back to the tee, play the hole, then come backwards off the green and take that same path backwards to the next tee -- #13 tee is right behind #11 green.  I don't know if they were going to have a par-3 somewhere else and it got shot down for environmental reasons and this one was tacked into the routing.

Come to think of it, the 13th at Royal Dornoch is the same way ... 14 tee is immediately behind 12 green, though the detour is not nearly so far.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom  (and James B., who implied the same in his post #8)

13 at Dornoch is an interesting case in that when originally designed by Old Tom Morris (and Archie Simpson?), it was on the card and played to a green to the right and short of the current 12th green (whose green then was 80 yards back in the fairway).  So, you walked easily from that green to (what is now) the 14th tee.   In 1904 or so, JH Taylor and Sutherland eliminated the current 13th, and moved the 12th green left to where it is today, giving the easy walk that you see today (if you skip the 13th).  In 1946, when the course was again remodeled, the 13th came back into play with a new green (today's) nestgled in the dunes, and requiring the slightly nettlesome walk backwards from green to tee.

Rich

[James Bennett]

Farnsworth

you and Tom got me good.  I was wrong.

The Deal hole is #14 (as Farnsworth would know), and doesn't return to the same spot for #15 tee as #13 green ( a little, but not the same).  However, Dornoch #13 does, as ForkaB has said.

How can I confuse Deal and Royal Dornoch?  The critical issue here is that Deal runs anti-clockwise, and Dornoch clockwise, making Dornoch's #13 return to the Eastern coast so much easier.  I should have remembered that.

My bad.  Not enough photos at Deal and Dornoch to remind a geriatric memory.

James B

[wsmorrison]

"I thought you were starting a thread about playing a course you hadn't in a real long time...and your opinion had changed..."

Sully, me change my mind?  Preposterous!  

Chris,

Salishan sounds like a terrible rerouting.  Walk down a hill and back up a hill?  Preposterous!

Chris and David,

There are a lot of features at Tobacco Road that had me scratching my head.  While there is some excellence there, the course left me feeling underwhelmed.  Forced mounding and bunkers in strange places requiring drain grates?  Preposterous!

Tom D,

I think I was walking on air at Dornoch the times I've played it,  so the shorter walk didn't seem at all onerous to me.  I think if the walk is not so bad (like back uphill) and it leads you to a really fine hole or stretch of holes, it is worth the trouble.  Where it does not and is late in the round and where the weather is often really hot and humid during golf season, it is preposterous!

[Mike_Cirba]

Worse yet is what you have at Tattersall (or whatever it's called now...Broad Run or something), and worse yet still is Lighthouse Sound.

On the 10th at Tattersall, you drive your cart about 3 miles from the 9th green and finally come to the 10th.....green.

Then, you drive the full 200 yards or so to the tee, and then turn around and come back down the length of the same cart path.   It's like one of those kids games where they blindfold you, spin you around, and then ask you to hit something with a stick.  

On the 2nd at Lighthouse SOund, when you play to the green, you soon see that it's also the 3rd green (a double green on consecutive holes, if you can imagine that), but that to get to drive out to a tee to come backwards in the same direction.

Some classics of routing.

[Phil McDade]

Wayne:

There is something of a walkback at Lawsonia, in the transition from the wonderful, semi-Redan par 3 4th to the par 5 5th hole there. But the walk is downhill, and comes early in the round, so it doesn't seem terribly onerous. There is some indication that the 5th hole at Lawsonia might have originally been a par 4 (it's the shortest par 5 on the course, and reachable for many players in two, although it does feature a tight driving area), which would have lessened the walkback considerably. The two holes are sort of tucked into a corner of the Lawsonia course, and both make good use of the rolling nature of the property there, so I'm not sure a re-route would be possible. And it may have been simply a product of course lengthening at one point.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Surprised no one has mentioned Inniscrone's walk back up the short par 3 5th to the 6th tee next to the previous tees.  Supposedly Gil wasn't allowed to build the hole in the opposite direction.

I seem to recall someone posted pics of Thanksgiving Point in Utah, and there may have been a retrace par 3 there.

[Dan_Callahan]

Dedham Country and Polo Club's 17th and 18th have side-by-side tee boxes. The 17th is a par three, so the walk back isn't any longer than some of the long gree-to-tee traverses over protected wetlands you find on newer courses.

[Adam Clayman]

Phil, I don't consider that a retracement at Lawsonia. First, it is off to the side, technically not going over ground already travelled. Wayne's distinction between a retracement that's worthy and those that aren't, is key. At Lawsonia, it would be worth it if it were a retracement.
 Beverly's second retraces back but the area is protected by a grove of trees. It's worth it to utilize the entire property.

Even at Ballyneal Doak retraces to get to the 8th. Anyone not seeing the worthyness of seventh green and the 8th hole combined, are either kissing someone's ass or just brain dead.

The worst example I know of was in Florida at one of those Pine ____ courses attached to some big hotel in Orlando. A Joe Lee redo where late in the round, a pivotal stage in any routing, forces the golfer to retrace back 75 % of the previous hole. Just horrible gca.

[Bill Shamleffer]

I have never had any problem with having to play #16 at S. Louis C.C. and then walking back to #17 tee.  In fact, when no one was behind or in front we would normally tee off #16, then walk over to #17 tee and tee off, then go play out #16 then go to our tee balls on #17.  Rather then finding this system to be disjointed, I actually liked the out of the norm system and looked forward to these side by side tee boxes.

I have never judged #16 (or any other whole at St. Louis C.C.) by how well or poorly it replicated any other hole.  The course is just so magnificent compared to any other course in St. Louis, I just always enjoyed playing each of these holes.  For me there is not a single weak hole on the course.

Wayne,

I do not mean to criticize your opinion of this routing, but rather to offer my own perspective.  I can certainly understand why some would not like the walk back for #17, and I certainly respect it as a legitimate issue one may have with the routing.  Although, I do think it works for these two holes.

Nevertheless, I would like forward to hearing how the rest of the course was playing and you thoughts on the rest of the routing.

I also hope Jim Nugent is able to offer his thoughts on the #17 walk back.

[Pete_Pittock]

The 13th at Mallard Creek near Lebanon, OR is a downhill par 3 playing about 200 yds. To play the 14th you return up the 60' hill and tee up in the opposite direction. During college tournaments we station a couple of cart for us during the hole.

Wayne,
I haven't played or seen Salishan since the change, but the uphill hole par 3 (Federspiel?) was terrible. The odds are you would never see the flagstick, even if it were lengthened. The change also allowed more length on the next hole because they didn't have to account for sprayed shots affecting the tee area.

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