[CHrisB]

Matt,
Fortunately I had not heard (or paid attention to) much of anything about Black Mesa prior to playing it, other than it had to be included on any golf trip to NM. So I didn't have any preconceived notions about the course, which was nice. So there weren't any surprises compared to whatever I might have expected, although once I saw the property I was pleasantly surprised that the course was so walkable--so many modern courses over rugged terrain would be built strictly for carts but Black Mesa is a very pleasant walk with only a couple of hikes between holes.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

Yes, you're right.

The walkable element found there is a big time plus. Although the uphill climb via the 16th hole can be a bit demanding for those who are out of shape.

I think the element that most surprised me about Black Mesa is the ease by which the routing maximizes all the qualities of the land. There are no real repeat elements and I usually see that aspect as a central one in elevating the nature of a course. Any course that can always keep the player guessing and in providing for differences throughout the round makes for compelling golf. Black Mesa certainly does that.

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more underrated holes at Black Mesa is the unique par-4 17th -- plays 424 yards and is listed as the 12th handicap hole.

The tee shot is quite perplexingon first glance. You have various rolls and it's quite easy for a shot that is slightly off-line to move further and further away from the optimum playing line -- especially if you push the ball to the right.

The hole is a dog-leg left and the green is perched high above the fairway -- in fact, you need to hit one of your best approaches to come even remotely close to the where the hole is cut -- especially if placed near the very front edge.

If you should hit the approach too hard it's very easy for the shot to roll of the back or sides.

The 17th at Black Mesa would appear to be a solid opportunity for a fast birdie or quick par -- the reality from all the times I have played it and seen others do likewise -- is very different indeed.

[Ryan Farrow]

Andy:

There's nothing that's strictly public in AZ that comes remotely close to the qualities of Black Mesa, IMHO. And that includes such well-regarded layouts often cited on GCA such as Apache Stronghold and Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa.

Black Mesa is the better by far of those two in terms of land, routing and consistently higher and more comprehensive shot values.

Whoa there, are you loosing your mind? I have not been to Black Mesa but I think thats a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Conditioning aside Apache Stronghold is the best Desert golf course I have ever played, and one of the best golf courses I have ever played period. I thought the routing and shot values were incredible, what course are you talking about? Please tell me one instance where you thought the land, routing, or shot values at Apache Stronghold were not superb? Please, I'd really like to know.

[Andy Troeger]

One of the more underrated holes at Black Mesa is the unique par-4 17th -- plays 424 yards and is listed as the 12th handicap hole.

The tee shot is quite perplexingon first glance. You have various rolls and it's quite easy for a shot that is slightly off-line to move further and further away from the optimum playing line -- especially if you push the ball to the right.

The hole is a dog-leg left and the green is perched high above the fairway -- in fact, you need to hit one of your best approaches to come even remotely close to the where the hole is cut -- especially if placed near the very front edge.

If you should hit the approach too hard it's very easy for the shot to roll of the back or sides.

The 17th at Black Mesa would appear to be a solid opportunity for a fast birdie or quick par -- the reality from all the times I have played it and seen others do likewise -- is very different indeed.

Matt,
They may have updated the handicaps...my scorecard from November (which was new) says #17 is the #2 hcp. I have no argument with that as it is one of the tougher holes on the side. You could make an argument for #10 or #16 I think too but #17 would probably be my choice. Love the second shot.

Ryan,
Maybe you should play Black Mesa and I should play Apache Stronghold! So far of the 20 or so courses I've seen in Arizona, Black Mesa still comes in ahead of them all for me.

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Hold the phone buckeroo -- you admit you HAVE NOT PLAYED Black Mesa and are telling me I'm "losing (sic) my mind."

Ryan, before you bark to me about what I know or don't know do yourself a mega favor and play Black Mesa FIRST.

Once you do that -- then come back to me and tell me your thoughts on why I'm wrong.

I've played Apache Stronghold several times -- I enjoyed the course immensely. However, I was disappointed in subsequent plays with inferior turf conditions and there are a few holes which I see as being less than the totality of the others. That doesn't mean I don't like the course or would return if turf quality improves.

Black Mesa, IMHO, is easily among the best modern designed (last 15 years) that I have personally played. You can certainly tell me I'm wrong BUT before you do that -- play Black Mesa.

I'll say this again ... Black Mesa is the better by far in terms of land, routing and consistently higher and more comprhensive shot values. When you say you "think thats a pretty ridiculous statement," -- do some heavy personal lifting by playing the course before you prove your own ignorance.

My playing record among courses in the desert SW is very extensive. No doubt, it's my opinion, but it comes from having played the courses personally.

End of story.

[Ryan Farrow]

Fine, don't answer the question Matt.

If you want to make a bold statement like the one you made and give no examples of why the land, routing, and shot values are better than your just blowing hot air. From hearing most of your criticisms of AS, it sounds as though you just can't get over the conditioning problems they have.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I believe your handicap number for the hole is correct.

Agreed -- the approach -- both in terms of the angle and the elevation change from fairway to green makes for a more demanding situation than many others encountered at Black Mesa. This is especially so when the pin is cut tight to the front and hard to the left.

As I said before -- getting into the right position at #17 is also quite demanding because of the "bob and weave" effect encountered on the fairway. Unlike #10 which can funnel tee shots into the preferred location -- that's far from being so easily done at #17.

The only more demanding approach I can think that would rival that is when the pin is cut hard to the extreme right hand side of #7. Getting a short pitch shot to stop near the hole when located in that spot can be the most vexing of all short shots encountered at Black Mesa.

Ryan:

Let me repeat this again -- you may have had an extreme difficulty in understanding my comments previously made.

You bark at me for "losing my mind" BUT you have not played Black Mesa to begin to tell me how wrong I am.

Hello anybody home?

I say this again in the event your reading comprehension skills are a bit challenged -- you're in no position to tell me how much greater AS is over Black Mesa until you have played the layout in New Mexico.

Got it.

I have stated over and over -- on this thread -- based on a number of personal experiences the nature of what make Black Mesa that great a course.

I did not say that AS is a bad course -- or that I would not enjoy returning there provided the turf was a bit more than the dirt masquerading as turf as it was when I last played there. I salute Tom Doak for a job well done. I just don't see the totality of all the holes at AS as being as consistently as high as what you see with Black Mesa.

Black Mesa, IMHO, has the better overall land, a far superior overall routing and the more diverse / sophisticated shot values. I don't see AS as an equal in any of the aforementioned categories I just mentioned.

That's my opinion Ryan -- based on several visits to both courses. You, on the other hand, are totally clueless on what makes Black Mesa so much better in my mind.

I'd be happy to do a cross comparison of the two courses but you really need to settle down in front of the computer you're typing on and try to think through your challenge to me without first understanding how empty your original argument truly is.

[Garland Bayley]

I was at Black Mesa on a day when they held their member, guest tournament. I had a chance to speak with a couple of guests. They were not too pleased with the course. I also played with some people playing there for the first time from Albuquerque. They found nothing particularly great about the course compared to places they had played in Albuquerque. My question is what is it that keeps these people from being as impressed as Matt is?

Ryan,

Having played Black Mesa, I find it hard to imagine why Matt would dis' all of Arizona compared to it.

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
Do you remember any of their actual comments? Being from Albuquerque I agree (and its on this thread I think) that Paa-Ko Ridge is considered the best course in the area by most locals but always curious for more opinions.

If not Paa-Ko, what courses in ABQ did they like?

[Pete Lavallee]

Garland,

From my one play there the reason Matt loves it so much is:

Hard to figure where to hit it off the tee

Hard to actually get it to that spot

Hard to hit the green never mind hit the right portion of the green

Almost impossible to make any putt outside of 30 feet of the day's hole location

Some hole locations demand hitting the approach within a 3 foot circle to get anywhere close

I'de love to hear what his best round on his first ball is there.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Having played many of the public/resort courses in both Arizona and New Mexico, I feel that New Mexico is the best bang for the buck for the public golfer.

Black Mesa is one of the best public courses built in the last 10 years, although it certainly is not everyone's cup of tea (ask George P.) .  I preferred it to Paa-Ko courses. The first hole at Black Mesa is kind of off putting start to a round.

Apache Stronghold is also one of my favorites, but it is a mess. Public golf in Arizona  is just too expensive and not all that interesting after a while.

I certainly would return to New Mexico for golf before going back to to Arizona.

[Garland Bayley]

As I remember Paa-Ko was their favorite.
Don't remember specifics other than they preferred Paa-Ko.

Garland,
Do you remember any of their actual comments? Being from Albuquerque I agree (and its on this thread I think) that Paa-Ko Ridge is considered the best course in the area by most locals but always curious for more opinions.

If not Paa-Ko, what courses in ABQ did they like?

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
Fair enough, as I've said before while I really like them both I don't fault anyone for preferring one to the other. They are quite different for being 50 miles apart. Paa-Ko is a little more straightforward and I've never heard anyone who really disliked it. Black Mesa gets reactions all over the board, but those that love it are more passionate about it than the Paa-Ko fans.

All,
Other than possibly Apache they both are much better bang for the buck than Arizona (except when its 110 degrees there). I'll be interested in Matt's response to your post, Pete, but I don't find BM that difficult to score on if you're playing well. If you're not playing well it could eat you alive (as it will the next time I play it as punishment for this post), but once you get to know it and learn the required shots, which are not evident the first time around, you discover there is much more room to play with than you'd think.

For example on #10 to a back right pin you can use the huge slope to the left to feed the ball back there. If you tried to fly it back it would be very difficult but given the slope there's a fair chance of getting it in the right area (or at least more than it would appear from the fairway).

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

From my one play there the reason Matt loves it so much is:

Hard to figure where to hit it off the tee

Hard to actually get it to that spot

Hard to hit the green never mind hit the right portion of the green

Almost impossible to make any putt outside of 30 feet of the day's hole location

Some hole locations demand hitting the approach within a 3 foot circle to get anywhere close

I'de love to hear what his best round on his first ball is there.

So your answer is that the others prefer to be able to know where to hit off the tee, and be able to hit it there with ease, they like it to be easy to hit the green and the right part of the green, and they like to make 30 foot putts.

I guess that explains Fazio.
 

[Pete Lavallee]

Andy,

I agree that after repeat plays BM will be easier to figure out off the tee. Although the angles and blindnes are a bit unsettling for the first timer that is not what I disliked about BM.

Garland,

Here's what I'm saying :

Getting close to the hole is a part of playing good golf; if you have no opportunity to get close to the hole then there won't be much fun or the golfer.

I love crazy undulating greens as much as the next guy, but I also like the fact that if I hit a well planned putt at the right speed I should be able to get within 5 feet of the hole. There are many hole locations at BM that don't allow that; and I know because I tried those putts 10 times and still couldn't get within 15 feet of the hole!

[Matt_Ward]

Peter:

It's great to read such a definitive statement on the shortcomings of Black Mesa given one play -- ONLY.

Let me go through each of your previous statements ...

First off -- I don't know your handicap or what tees you played when there -- a bit more info would help. Ditto to learn what you believe are the best public courses you have ever played in the USA which are in the same dollar figure as Black Mesa -- a sort of pound-for-pound comparison is what I'm looking to do.

MY RESPONSES TO EACH OF YOUR COMMENTS IS IN CAPS ...

Hard to figure where to hit it off the tee

DO YOU BELIEVE GOLF COURSES HAVE TO PROVIDE AN EASY-TO-READ MAP IN ALL SITUATIONS? IF THAT'S THE CASE DON'T VENTURE TO ANY NUMBER OF OUTSTANDING COURSES IN THE USA. BLACK MESA DOES HAVE SOME BLIND SHOTS BUT THEY ARE FEW IN PRACTICE -- THE 10TH COMES QUICKLY TO MIND. IN SUM -- A FIRST TIME VISIT MAY CAUSE THAT OPINION BUT IT'S UNFAIR / UNREASONABLE TO HAVE THIS IDEA THAT ARCHITECTS CAN'T PROVIDE SUCH CHALLENGES FOR PLAYERS TO OVERCOME. A CAN NAME PLENTY OF OTHER COURSES WHERE THIS TECHNIQUE IS USED AND USED WELL.

Hard to actually get it to that spot

HOW SO? YOU NEED TO GIVE ME SPECIFIC EXAMPLES OTHERWISE THIS IS NOTHING MORE THAN MEANINGLESS CONJECTURE ON YOUR PART.

Hard to hit the green never mind hit the right portion of the green

AGAIN -- HOW SO? THIS IS NOTHING MORE THAN HIT'N RUN ANALYSIS -- IF IT CAN EVEN BE CALLED THAT.

Almost impossible to make any putt outside of 30 feet of the day's hole location

MAYBE YOU NEED TO PRACTICE YOUR PUTTING. BLACK MESA HAS DIFFERENT SECTIONS WITHIN EACH PART OF MANY OF THE PUTTING GREENS. IF YOU TAKE UMBRAGE AT THAT THEN YOU'LL FIND OTHER ARCHITECTS SUCH AS DOAK, HANSE, COORE & CRENSHAW, et al, WHO DO LIKEWISE.

Some hole locations demand hitting the approach within a 3 foot circle to get anywhere close

AGAIN -- ANOTHER BLANKET STATEMENT WITHOUT PRECISE HOLE SPECIFICS.

I'de love to hear what his best round on his first ball is there.

MY BEST ROUND AT BLACK MESA IS ONE OVER PAR FROM THE TIP TEES -- INCIDENTALLY IT WAS ON MY FIRST VISIT BEFORE I KNEW WHERE ALL THE TROUBLE IS.

Garland, Andy, et al:

Paa-Ko Ridge is a fun course to play and one anyone traveling to or thru the greater Albuquerque area should play. However, the Ken Dye course is extremely sculptured from the existing terrain -- it sum, it looks super-imposed upon the native countryside and stands outside of it -- rather than embracing it.

The bunkering is also clearly manufactured from man's hands rather than naturally blending with what is already there.

I also can see why people would favor Paa-Ko because it's likely easier for many to play -- Black Mesa doesn't forgive errant play that easy -- you will find the ball but the approach play is best handled from optimum landing areas which are sufficiently provided for by architect Baxter Spann.

Keep in mind another thing -- the benchmark for quality design in New Mexico is extremely low. People are used to having fairways as W-I-D-E as Kansas with no proportionate penalty for such indifferent play -- see Taos Golf Club as a good example of that type. Black Mesa requires careful thought with consistent effort from the 1st tee shot through the last putt.

One other thing -- check out the comments made by Ron Whitten on Black Mesa via golfdigest.com. Ron is not a low handicap golfer but his observations on what the course provides makes for interesting reading.

[Pete Lavallee]

Matt,

My friends call me Pete.

AND PLEASE STOP SHOUTING AT ME!

In answer to your questions:

Handicap anywhere between 3.7 and 10.2 in the last 5 years.

Public courses played: Bethpage Black over a dozen times, at least one round on all the other Bethpage courses.
20 times minimum on Torrey Pines South.
At least a dozen rounds at Pasatiempo.
On the same trip my wife and I played Taconic, French Lick, Wild Horse, Ballyneal and Saguaro.

I'm sorry we only had time to play BM once, but we were visiting my cousin in Santa Fe and when her husband said he wanted to join us for golf he said he'de rather go to work than play BM.

I started on the Blue tees and within 4 holes moved up to the Whites.

As I said to Andy the angles and blindness are OK in my book; granted they will take  few rounds to get use to. My wife (a 20 hdcp who hits it 180) loved all the other courses on our trip; not so for BM. The reason I believe is that some of the angles just breakdown from the forward tees; holes like 1, 9, 10, 14 just don't work from up front.

Maybe we just got a day with extremely severe pin placements; honestly I thought they were trying to impress someone that day: did any GW raters show up on Oct. 25? Specifically: The upper left position on 10, the pin just over the bunker left on 14, the middle left pin on 15, the front left pin on 16.

I played Ballyneal just before BM and there were several putts the begged for a redo at both courses. Within 2 or 3 attempts I was able to get within 5 feet of the hole at Ballyneal. Honestly, at BM I tried over 10 putts at several locations and never got to within 15 feet of the hole; maybe Crenshaw could have done it but to me it seemed impossible for mere mortals.

Now that I've answered your questions: What is your second best round there, playing one ball into the hole?

[Andy Troeger]

Keep in mind another thing -- the benchmark for quality design in New Mexico is extremely low. People are used to having fairways as W-I-D-E as Kansas with no proportionate penalty for such indifferent play -- see Taos Golf Club as a good example of that type. Black Mesa requires careful thought with consistent effort from the 1st tee shot through the last putt.

Matt,
If you think most courses in New Mexico are W-I-D-E then I must ask what you are smoking when you are here? For as much as you've talked about playing Black Mesa in the wind I've got to wonder if you've played any of the other courses on a similar day. They are anything but W-I-D-E.

That said I agree that once you get past the top few courses things go down quickly. But not because they are W-I-D-E. And don't tell me I haven't played the golf courses!  

My last two trips to Paa-Ko my better score was 84. My worst score last two trips to Black Mesa was 78 so I'd beg to differ that Paa-Ko is easier. The ratings and slopes are very similar, Paa-Ko is just more straightforward and easier to grasp in terms of major themes on the first go-around.

[Garland Bayley]

...
 we were visiting my cousin in Santa Fe and when her husband said he wanted to join us for golf he said he'de rather go to work than play BM.
...

Did he give any reason you recall for that?

Can't imagine a golf course where I would rather go to work than play golf.

[Matt_Ward]

Pete:

Thanks for the more detailed reply.

I have to say this -- Bethpage Black -- I have played 200+ rounds there and love the course for what it used to be -- is not at the same level as Black Mesa in terms of overall architectural details. The Black has become the Barry Bonds of public golf -- muscular to the point of obsurdity. Finesse play is not part of the BB agenda - it has also been narrowed to the point of a bowling alley on so many holes. The green complexes are also a good less in terms of what you see at Black Mesa. Let me emphasize again so that there is no misunderstanding -- I loved the "ole design" style of BB -- nothing against the upgrades in terms of conditioning -- but the narrow and inane desire to super-size the course has lost me in terms of its original charm and character.

Torrey Pines South is basically another version of what I described with BB. I don't see either course -- especially TPS -- as being remotely in the same class with BM.

In regards to other courses you mentioned -- I see BM as being equal or greater than Pasatiempo and even Wild Horse. The lone course I can see at the same level as BM is Ballyneal which I see as a super design effort from T Doak.

Pete, given your handicap level you can certainly play the back markers. Since you decided to move up I can't speak to your game that day or if weather conditions forced your hand.

Allow me to further examine a few items. Given the mile plus altitude Black Mesa doesn't play nearly all of the 7,300 yards listed. I don't doubt that someone reaching the 1st tee for the very first time will have a real difficulty in understanding where you do go. Heck, I can say the same thing for a number of such comparable holes in the UK / Ireland as well. If you were forced to play the course with no one who had played there previously then I can see why you might come to the conclusions you did. Knowing where to land the ball - especially off the tee -- is critical in being able to get the opportunity to score reasonably well at BM.

Let's talk about the specific pins you mentioned. I'm guessing at the 10th you meant front left -- if so -- that's a very tough one. If, on the other hand, you meant all the way in the back -- that pin is much more accessible.

On #14 you are approaching the hole with nothing more than a 9-iron, wedge or even a lob wedge depending upon one's distance. If the pin is cut tight to that side -- that's fair game in my book. The middle left pin on #15 is very tough -- I concede that. Playing that hole is not easy to figure out the first time. At #16 you are approaching that pin with a very short pitch shot -- provided you have played the first two shots on this uphill par-5 correctly.

In regards to your wife -- I see the architectural elements remaining in balance no matter where one tees from. I do admit the 1st hole can be quite vexing -- but it's far from being unfair as others ignorantly seem to embrace. At #10 you have a funnel that can propel your ball a good bit more down the fairway if you hit the correct position. #14 is a short par-4 but it does require plenty of thought at the tee and on the approach. You also mentioned #9 and I have to ask what specifically caused you wife to feel negatively towards the hole. The fairway bunker complex is to be avoided and the green contours - especially the hump towards the front are fair game items in my book but I am willing to hear a counterpoint if details can be offered.

Try to keep this in mind -- architect Baxter Spann has provided plenty of elements to throw the player off their games with all sorts of humps and hollows in the fairways and greens. There are also plenty of design "mind" fields which can intimidate the player who is struggling. Some examples would be the back pin area at #2 -- the demanding pin location at #3 when placed hard right - the fall offs to both sides at the long par-3 8th.

Throw in the wind if it should blow at any real velocity -- say 25 MPH which is not out of the ordinary and I can see how people might feel the course is overwhelming. Heck, if one plays Pebble Beach in no wind -- I can see people thinking it's a pushover and if different people played it in a 25+ mpg wind having a different viewpoint.

I would urge you to read the comments from Ron Whitten on Black Mesa. I believe his narrative captures quite well the conceptual framework Baxter Spann provided.

In regards to my second round at Black Mesa I was roughly 3-4 shots higher than my first round if memory serves but the wind on the second time was a good bit more demanding. I also gave some thought to the trouble areas that were not on my mind the first time I played the layout. What's funny is that the course has caused me to think even more with each play -- in my mind, that's the mark of a stellar course.

Andy:

When I use the term "wide" I am referring to the fact that many of courses in NM have little in terms of real strategic consequences for failing to get to a precise spot in order to play a carefully crafted appoach shot. In sum -- you can approach from either side and it doesn't really matter in causing a more challenged approach play. A number of courses in NM have greens the size of Kansas -- often with little internal complexity to cause an issue on what side of the pin your ball finally inhabits.

Isleta, Taos, Sandia, Twin Warriors are four that come to mind -- Towa is another. Even UNM / Championship has played wide because it's been so watered in my previous plays there (I can't comment since the new superintendent has come on board). that it doesn't hurt the player to get to either side of the fairway and still have a playable approach shot. Ditto to a same, but somewhat lesser extent with Pinon Hills in Farmington.

Andy, if you want to take the position that any course can play tough when experiencing hurricane type winds I completely concur with you.

One other thing -- I didn't say Paa-Ko was easier or tougher. I don't see Paa-Ko Ridge as architecturally detailed or as naturally defined or as blended with the pre-existing elements as what you see with Black Mesa (see my previous comments). I also don't see the sheer diversity of holes and high caliber routing that Black Mesa also offers.

Andy, you answered your own question. Paa-Ko is easier to discern and handle the first time around because it's overall design / complexity is just not present. As a general rule of thumb I use - when a course is easy to figure out the first time around it's usually going to be lower in my mind than courses that require a good bit more thought on how to play it. Black Mesa fits quite nicely into the second category for me. In your own words -- Paa-Ko is "easier to grasp" -- that tells me loud and clear that Black Mesa is a good bit more evolved in terms of architectural details and is far richer in terms of overall shot values that can often escape many people on a first time play.

In terms of your score -- Paa-Ko can play tougher than Black Mesa from the middle tees -- you've mentioned previously how you have played Black Mesa from the next set of tees -- not the tips.

Garland B:

The reason novice and journeyman public course players in NM have a hard time in accepting Black Mesa has been they have been spoon-fed mundane and arcane layouts that are nothing more than huge fields to play golf with little, if any, real architectural depth.

Black Mesa doesn't tolerate bad golf -- guess what -- neither does Pine Valley or Oakmont or any of the really great courses commonly extolled on this site. However, Black Mesa is not penal -- it requires controlled placements to get to particular areas in order to provide a much more easier shot with your approach. The bar for quality public golf has always been low in the Land of Enchantment (save for UNM / Championship) until the arrival of Paa-Ko and Black Mesa reversed that trend in a major way.

To put it simply -- patrons of public golf in NM had only tasted fast food designs and when you've only eaten burgers from McD's and Burger King for nearly all your public play it's easy to see how such a gourmet feast like Black Mesa can easily be lost on such folks.

[Mark Smolens]

A fraternity brother of mine who now lives in Germany is on a U.S. college-tour with his high school senior son.  They will be in Santa Fe late next week and (since that's the warmest spot on their trip) would like to play some golf.  I've sent them to Black Mesa -- based upon reading this thread and the course description on GCA.  Two questions:  what're their chances of getting decent, playable weather?  any other options if they decide to play more than one day?

[Andy Troeger]

Most likely they'll see high temps in the 40's at Black Mesa, so they'll want to dress fairly warm. Paa-Ko Ridge is closed at this time of year due to higher elevation. They might check out Pueblo de Cochiti which isn't far from Santa Fe, or UNM South in Albuquerque.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

You need to realize Santa Fe is at 6,000 feet of elevation -- Black Mesa is slightly lower, if memory serves, but the idea that your friends will encounter balmy weather is no more than a 50/50 situation at this time of year.

Your best bet is to head an hours drive south to the greater Albuquerque area. You'll have a few more options -- Twin Warriors, Sandia, UNM, Isleta, are all options to consider. Temps in the Albuquerque area should be in the 50 degree range -- your friends may even see a bit milder conditions because the elevation is not as high.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Its supposed to snow here today, I wish it was 50!  

But it was 57 on Saturday which was our nicest day in a few weeks. Long range forecast shows most days around 45 degrees in ABQ for a high, but sunny.

Santa Fe is closer to 7,000 feet, and you are correct BM is more like 5,500 I think. ABQ is just shy of 5,000.

By no means can I recommend Isleta against those other courses.

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