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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2007, 09:16:39 PM »
Apparently we're on a front tee with the camera...but I've not been here...there...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2007, 09:18:30 PM »
Picture was not taken from the back tees. It was taken from just above the ladies tees... maybe at like the whites. The drop-off I gave was from the back tees. It's probably like 120 feet. I'd have to look into the actual change, but its very significant.

Even 120 feet seems pretty unbelievable.  Thats the height of a 10 story building....and that is pretty dang tall...

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2007, 09:18:54 PM »
Ryan,
Fair enough.
Not here to argue with you...I like architectural discussions and don't like others trying to qualify who "knows what the hell you’re talking about".
I wasn't a big fan of the "old super" thread, but the voice that JK used is what we deal with all the time...doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about but you had better be aware of it if you want to last as a super.

Tony,
Flowers...early morning light???
All I said was I don't like the look of the pond...jeez...so much for any frank commentary.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2007, 09:48:19 PM »
JES,

The drop from tee to fairway is 459 feet, so for you the target would be to just hit it at the green. With, what would be good - 2-iron?

Don,

Didn't mean to insult your opinion but talking about a pond, and probably a drainage pond, is to me like discussing the finer points of a restaurant and bringing up the wallpaper in the foyer. But hey, that's just me.

Anthony

Roger Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2007, 09:49:15 PM »
Even 120 feet seems pretty unbelievable.  Thats the height of a 10 story building....and that is pretty dang tall...

It's up there. The two holes prior play dead up the mountain. Need confirmation from Brad, I tend to exaggerate these things in my head somewhat. The drop off on the 16th hole at Tedesco is 80 feet, so I'm comparing it to that. And I know it's higher.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 09:50:34 PM by Roger Tufts »
Cornell University '11 - Tedesco Country Club - Next Golf Vacation: Summer 2015 @ Nova Scotia & PEI (14 Rounds)

Roger Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2007, 09:51:38 PM »
Didn't mean to insult your opinion but talking about a pond, and probably a drainage pond, is to me like discussing the finer points of a restaurant and bringing up the wallpaper in the foyer. But hey, that's just me.

Pool or a pond; pond would be good for you.
Cornell University '11 - Tedesco Country Club - Next Golf Vacation: Summer 2015 @ Nova Scotia & PEI (14 Rounds)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2007, 09:52:59 PM »
Don't know the right answer, but I can say it is not Applebrook or Hidden Creek...at least the Hidden Creek by C&C in NJ.

Kyle, doesn't it look like you would prefer to be in the left side of this fairway? Looks to me like a medium to short par 5...


JK,

At first blush, I sort of agree...not much about that picture grabbing me.


Anthony,

If something in this post offended you, you're skin might be thin...if it happened previously, I apologize.

If you're not actually interested in talking about the hole then just say so, I'll ask someone else...but it's your thread...


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2007, 09:59:02 PM »
JES,

The drop from tee to fairway is 459 feet, so for you the target would be to just hit it at the green. With, what would be good - 2-iron?

Don,

Didn't mean to insult your opinion but talking about a pond, and probably a drainage pond, is to me like discussing the finer points of a restaurant and bringing up the wallpaper in the foyer. But hey, that's just me.

Anthony


Anthony,

Would it be fair, then to use your analogy thusly:

The fairway is the restaurant, and the pond is "only the foyer". Therefore, the restaurant ambiance and functionality is totally dependent on this foyer, whether one wants it to be or not. The entire layout of the establishment is dictated by the foyer.

Away from that analogy (not sure if it is that appropriate after all), is there a reason for the bunker short left, hanging near the edge of the water feature? Same question for the cluster of three bunkers further up on the left. What is their function? Is the big hole with water not enough, strategically?

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2007, 03:23:38 AM »

I've played the hole twice, both times in the company of people who have played or seen hundreds of courses and all rave about this hole.

I'm puzzled.  You start the thread asking where this mystery hole is, then tell us you've played it twice?

So you must be asking for comment on the hole.  But then you don't like that people comment without having played it?  So what's the point of the post.

For my money, having never played the hole, commenting just off photo, I really don't like it.  Too much going on.  It's like someone gave a 12 year old a kit of golf hole components.  Also it looks to me like the playing options mostly aren't real options (except the option to use the wrong fairway, which looks very tempting but I guess wasn't intended by the architect).

And yes, then "pond" looks horrible, whether it had to be there or not.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2007, 03:53:53 AM »
I do kind of agree with the too much going on theory. However, I wonder if it was necessary to create the green complex the way it was so as to prevent continual bailout onto that right fairway. Doesn’t look like there’s much of a litigation problem because there’s plenty of visibility but maybe just to keep play moving. I also wonder about the tee shot strategy. Looks like the right and left fairway bunkers are just going to get a lot of people that are new to the game thinking that maybe they will stay at home next week. It does seem that the bunker short of the pond is the aiming point and you just need to keep short of it. I can’t see much benefit in lashing it right side of the pond but it’s difficult to say without actually seeing the hole.

Anyway, who knows what the intent of the architect was and maybe the client had a lot to do with the design.

Bits I do like are the natural look of the turf away from play and it looks like the only place you’re going to lose a ball is in that swamp thing. Also I do like that rough looking path.

I’ve ‘de-busyfied’ the look. Is it any better???????




ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2007, 05:37:35 AM »
JES II,

It was a joke. Lighten up Francis.

Mark,

The point of the post was to see if people could guess who did this.

Joe,

My analogy would be the pond is the foyer and everything in play is the food. I would want to talk with people that ate at the restaurant, not just looked into the front window, but hey, that's me.

Off to mow grass, rake bunkers.

Anthony


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2007, 11:08:29 AM »
Tony:

It's good to see that Brian is doing some more original stuff and not patterning everything after Raynor.

As for your speculation that if my name had been attached, people would like the hole more, I really wonder if I have that much power.  But, I've never built a hole that looks quite like the one pictured, and I probably never will, so we'll never get to test your theory.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2007, 11:10:33 AM »
Alright, to give an opinion on how it plays, before my brother lights himself on fire...

The hole is something like 540-550 from the second to the tips.  Perhaps 10-15 yards longer from the backs.

The tee shot is between the bunker on the left and the cluster of bunkers on the right.  There are several fairway upslopes in the landing area that prevent large amounts of roll.  I hit a good ball off the tee, and had probably 260-270 to the green.  The fairway from the tee is not as narrow as it seems, as the length of time the ball will be in the air makes the landing area feel smaller.  The drop is probably 80-100 feet from the tee, maybe only 30-40 feet from the picture spot.  The pond is in play for a pretty good hook, but one could be safe in an adjacent fairway to the left.

If the plan was to present a gambling par 5, I don't see it.  The hole is a bit too long for the player to really think of going for the green in two, and the area just in front is very narrow on the angle from the first landing area to the green.  I hit a 5-iron up the left, and it required a carry over the corner of the pond to a semi-blind fairway that is much larger than the view the player gets from the landing area.  I had probably 70 yards from there.  The waste area to the right of the green is death.  Hardpan, pebble-strewn dirt, the green is 15 feet above you, and sloping away.  Not a good idea to miss on this side.  My brother ended up in the mown grass short and left of the gree, which was a good angle.  Some thick rough (not the tall fescue) could take care of this circumvention.

Strangely, I thought that while my "aggressive" 5-iron ended up in the last bend of the fairway directly facing the green, a layup to 100-140 would present a VERY difficult angle to a green sloping right to left and away (from that angle), all carry over the deadly waste-area.  So, if the tee shot misses a little, and a layup must be to the biggest portion of the fairway right of the pond, a third shot of any length over 100 yards (unless way left from the adjacent hole) would be VERY difficult.

The green is small, pitched right to left, with a small tier towards the back right.  It is appropriate in size and slope for a short shot, not a running wood shot.

As for the styling, it's not that bad.  The course goes in and out of a couple of styles throughout the round, and this corner of the property features ragged-edged bunkering and waste areas.  After this section, the course goes to more manicured hazards amongst woods and wetlands, back out into a meadow, then combining the two styles for holes 14-18.  For better or for worse, it could work.  I have problems with a few of the holes going along, and it definately needs to mature as a whole (especially the part including the hole we are analyzing now), but it's not all bad.

It has certainly had an interesting life already, as it took 4-5 years from ground breaking to opening.  The financial issues are well-documented, and it was unique to have a "re-design" before golfers were able to experience it.  All in all, Silva likely did an admirable job considering the hurdles faced and the multiple parties involved.  I only say "likely" as I probably do not know every detail of the story.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 11:14:32 AM by Brad Tufts »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Jay Cox

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2007, 11:16:18 AM »
I’ve ‘de-busyfied’ the look. Is it any better???????

Marc,
Yes.

Eliminating the two big expanses of open sand -- just in front of the tee to the left, and short and right of the green -- makes an enormous difference visually.  

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2007, 11:28:48 AM »
Reaction to the "de-busyfying":

I think that the elimination of the waste bunker portion to the left is a question of playability, as the sand could help stop a ball that would end up in the fescue along the pond.  However, a shot shouldn't be going this far left anyways.  

As for the elimination of bunkers to the right of the fairway, it would cause players to bail out right much more often.  This would push layup shots to the right of the left fairway bunker (which is at roughly 150 from the green), causing the difficult approach.

I think the hole strategically plays better with the right-hand tee shot bunkers in use, as it forces the player to tee off straight, and have the difficult layup shot over the corner of the pond, and a chance to have the relatively simple 70-yd pitch at the green.  I feel like we have less par 5s today that really require two straight shots, as opposed to merely blasting away.

The elimation of the right portion of the greenside waste area does little but impact the tee shot on the adjacent hole, it's still an awful place to miss.  

I agree that the modified pic looks less busy.  But we are only talking aethetics here, not "strategery."

I still think the only and most important strategic issue of this hole is on the layup.  The angle from the biggest and most commonly-used layup area gives a very difficult approach shot.  The simplest appraoch is from an area which requires two long and well-played shots.  I can see that the difficult approach may be unique on a par five (so many today are simple, as three-shot par 5s are rarely standout holes), but the shot is one the average player would find extremely difficult.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 11:48:52 AM by Brad Tufts »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2007, 11:40:07 AM »
Tom,

Not sure how much Brian patterns after Raynor. I have not seen all or most of his work. I don't think Red Tail or Black Rock would fit the Raynor mold, but you have a better I than I do.

You and the other architects with Favored Nation Status - I love that description, I wish I had thought of it - are victims of the Cult of Personality. The blind allegiance of so many on this site is no reflection on you or your work. You know it's a fact that if Rees designed a course that Old Tom Morris rose from the dead to compliment they would still criticize simply because it's a Rees course. And if a dumptruck flipped over in a K-Mart parking lot and you put 18 drink umbrellas in the dirt there are those on this site who would call it the greatest design the world has ever known.

It's not just on this site; it's human nature. Hell if Bruce Springsteen farted into a microphone the CD would cell 2 million copies the first day.

If you don't mind commenting, I'd like to hear why you would not design a hole like this? What do you like and what don't you like about it?

Anthony

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2007, 12:19:29 PM »
Since I may have started all this outcry by saying I liked the look of the hole let me add a little more fuel to the fire.

I do like both "versions" of the hole but still stand by my first impression and like this hole.

After learning the name of the course, I googled it and looked at the other 17 holes and think that there is a nice variety to the course overall and I am even more confident that a hole or two like this on a course is a fine thing.

A quick sidebar--I like stuff that looks a little different.  Sometimes it's "busy", sometimes "plain"--whatever.  Anyway, I was down at The Creek Course in GA by Jim Engh and my initial impression of the first hole I saw (#9) was that this is really cool.  Something very different and not the same old standard crap.  

In that case, I toured the entire course and unfortunately felt like after seeing one hole, I'd kinda seen them all.  It was hard to remember any hole because I felt they all were too similar looking.  I ended up not really being a fan of that course.

In this case and especially after seeing the other holes, I like it.

Lastly, the pond doesn't bother me at all.  Maybe because I grew up in Georgia, that's what a lot of duck ponds look like.  Kinda swampy looking things with a mini island in the middle where the turltes and ducks hang out.  That looked as natural to me as anything and I could care less if it wasn't "dressed up" and made to look all pretty.

Sean--I appreciate that you can deceive and fool the golfer without being so busy.  I don't see why both approaches can't work well either.  From your picture I can't tell where the golfer is coming in from so it is really hard for me to comment but I appreciate your thoughts.





 

dsilk

Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2007, 01:00:00 PM »
played this hole w the thread author last week- the hole actually plays a lot easier from either of the adjacent fairways- perhaps the author was intrigued by the hole since he hit his tee ball into the hazard, dropped, laid up, missed the green left, chipped up and 3 jacked...
food for thought

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2007, 02:58:51 PM »
Silk,

A poor description of how I negotiated the hole.

A wonderfully played dead pull into the high stuff
An artful drop
A precisely thinned 5-iron over bunkers
Recalling a recent swing, pulled 6-iron left of green
Bladed chip
Leave 8 foot putt short
MAKE SECOND PUTT
Double Bogey

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2007, 04:06:27 PM »
215 yards from the white tees, plenty of room to miss over right bunkers.
 
Donnie, putting surface is large with plenty of "greens within greens."

« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 04:09:18 PM by Anthony Pioppi »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2007, 04:19:40 PM »
Looks terrible...

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2007, 04:35:26 PM »
Just awful. I hate it. Bleeeeeck. Pee Yoooo.

I was so angry after playing it I kicked a baby chipmunk on the way to the next hole. No, seriously, right in the head. Ask Silk.

Anthony

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2007, 04:46:29 PM »
And can you believe that enormous weed right next to the ladies aid :o

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #73 on: August 27, 2007, 05:06:24 PM »
Can I be frank Chris? (You can be Frank next time.) The weed is what sent me right over the edge. I like my "natural" areas to be perfect turf that is watered, sprayed, mowed, raked and massaged if need be. I don't need indigenous wild plants in my native areas. What the hell are these people thinking?

Anthony


Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Did This??
« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2007, 05:14:21 PM »
Phillistines--all of them ;).

Frank