[Phil Benedict]

Limiting the discussion to the US, it seems that the courses that almost every GCA'er loves are Sand and Shinnecock Hills, Pacific Dunes and Merion.  Most every other course generally considered great has detractors for one reason or another.  Pebble Beach has too many average holes; Winged Foot and Oakmont are too hard; Bethpage Black is too repetitive; Cypress Point finishes weak etc.  For some reason Pine Valley doesn't get talked about much on this site.

If I were visiting from Mars and my only source of opinion was GCA I would conclude that Sand Hills and Shinnecock Hills are the best courses in the US.

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

I think good arguments can be made that Sand Hills is the best Modern course and Shinnecock the best Classic course.

[Tom Huckaby]

I bet there are people who don't like Sand Hills.  I know there are people who don't think Shinnecock is the best classic course - hell I'm one of them.  Close, but not the best.  I also have a few friends who weren't too impressed with Pacific Dunes.

So... I think the answer to the topic is NONE.  I have a hard time believing in 100% opinions on anything.

[Phil Benedict]

I bet there are people who don't like Sand Hills.  I know there are people who don't think Shinnecock is the best classic course - hell I'm one of them.  Close, but not the best.  I also have a few friends who weren't too impressed with Pacific Dunes.

So... I think the answer to the topic is NONE.  I have a hard time believing in 100% opinions on anything.

100% is a stretch but without being too scientific it just seems to me that Sand Hills and Shinnecock Hills are the closest thing to a sacred cow we have around here.

[PThomas]

i'd say NGLA

[Phil Benedict]

i'd say NGLA

That probably is accurate about GCA'er's but outside of GCA there are people who don't get NGLA at all.  Not that this should matter since the topic is GCA opinion (and it's my topic).

[David Stamm]

I bet there are people who don't like Sand Hills.  I know there are people who don't think Shinnecock is the best classic course - hell I'm one of them.  Close, but not the best.  I also have a few friends who weren't too impressed with Pacific Dunes.

So... I think the answer to the topic is NONE.  I have a hard time believing in 100% opinions on anything.

To go along the lines of Hucks, opinions are like....well, you know the rest.


I haven't played an incredible array of courses, so my opinions wouldn't have much weight. Very few people can make this sort of assesment unless they have played virtually ALL of the greats. I know of very few that have done this. Now, if I go by what I hear, I hear very few (in fact none) detractors of Merion, Pine Valley or Shinnecock in terms of classics. I would throw Riviera in there as well, Fazio redo not withstanding. There are lots of greats, but as Phil mentioned, there is one reason or another for someone to say, "yes it's great, but...". I think there are others that qualify under the classic category, but don't have the major championship history, such as Valley Club, that I have RARELY heard a disparaging word said about them.


As far as Moderns, Sand Hills leaps to mind along with Friars Head. Ballyneal is another. While they are very young, I have NEVER heard ONE negative thing spoken about any of them.

[JSlonis]

I know one detractor of Merion.  Much to my surprise, a certain Philly section professional, in the recent Philadelphia Open didn't like Merion at all.  I'm not kidding either.  To paraphrase, "He didn't think it was special at all, and didn't understand how it was so highly regarded."  You can't make this stuff up.

Somehow, he also did not know it had been awarded the US Open in 2013 either.  It was one of the more strange discussions I've had about golf courses and architecture ever.

I guess Tom Paul's "Big World Theory" is alive and well.

[Tom Huckaby]

David:  I've read negative words about each of Friar's Head and Ballyneal in here - no way are those universally beloved.

And NGLA isn't even a sacred cow in here - heck there are quite a few who think it's too easy.

It does come close though - as does Sand Hills and Shinnecock.  But none are universal.

Which if you think about it, is kind of a good thing.

[John Kavanaugh]

i'd say NGLA

Have you played NGLA?  I know people who were not impressed with NGLA or Sand Hills.  I can not think of anyone who did not love Cypress Point.

[Tom Huckaby]

i'd say NGLA

Have you played NGLA?  I know people who were not impressed with NGLA or Sand Hills.  I can not think of anyone who did not love Cypress Point.

JK - Rich Goodale.  Pooh-poohed Cypress Point big time.  And you're definitely right that there are those who have no love for either NGLA or Sand Hills.

[Phil Benedict]

Maybe I've missed it but I haven't seen anyone diss Sand Hills around here.  I suppose the standard of 'no detractors' ought to be relaxed to 'fewest detractors.'  In which case Sand Hills and Shinnecock Hills have got to be the leaders in the clubhouse at GCA.

[Tom Huckaby]

Phil - sorry to be such a dork about this... I just do have a hard time using absolutes.  I think you're right about the two S-Hills being the leaders in the clubhouse.

But that being said, each does have its detractors - perhaps they don't voice their thoughts publicly or often, likely out of fear of being shouted down, but privately and quietly such thoughts are voiced.

And it's cool by me... heck I've made it clear I firmly believe Sand Hills is the greatest course on this planet (although I hear there are some links courses on Mars that make it look like kid's stuff) but if everyone agreed with me oh how boring this place would be!

[John Kavanaugh]

I played with a well traveled and USGA official who is a member of a classic Allison course who told me he did not like Sand Hills.  He was serious.

Rich Goodale once said he would never contribute to this site and we found out he could be bought with one interview.  He loves Cypress...You can book it..or better yet, he might.

[Tom Huckaby]

I played with a well traveled and USGA official who is a member of a classic Allison course who told me he did not like Sand Hills.  He was serious.

Rich Goodale once said he would never contribute to this site and we found out he could be bought with one interview.  He loves Cypress...You can book it..or better yet, he might.

JK:  I kinda believe that in his heart he does love Cypress.  But pooh-pooh it he did in here, actually in pretty great detail.  It was a few years ago, likely during one of your hiatuses.  A contrarian must live by his words.

 

[Phil Benedict]

Phil - sorry to be such a dork about this... I just do have a hard time using absolutes.  I think you're right about the two S-Hills being the leaders in the clubhouse.

As a reigning club champion you have earned the right to be a dork.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Phil - sorry to be such a dork about this... I just do have a hard time using absolutes.  I think you're right about the two S-Hills being the leaders in the clubhouse.

As a reigning club champion you have earned the right to be a dork.  

That truly did get audible yuks!

OK, my son asked me if I won something for that.. I can know give him a very concrete example.

 

[Mike_Cirba]

If memory serves, doesn't Mike Malone think Merion is highly overrated?  

I know I've critiqued the bunker "restoration" at Merion in here with some vehement and heated comments some years ago.

Since being sent to the re-education camp (which is probably where Malone is now), I now clearly see the error of my ways.

[Adam Clayman]

Everyone loves Pacfic Grove.  Whether it's the pleasant surprise or the low green fee, everyone loves it. Even the caddies from St Andrews preferred it to it's bigger neighbors. Grant it, it suited their games better than the Americanized versions of the Company courses.

[Phil Benedict]

Here is the current Golf Digest top 12 (Sand Hills is 12th so this is not an arbitrary cutoff).  I will attempt to paraphrase the most common criticism of the course if I know it:

1) Pine Valley - Don't know.  Maybe a bit overtreed until recently but I don't know what else is wrong with it.

2) Shinnecock - Aside from the fact that the Flynnophiles prefer the old Flynn tee on the Redan, I don't know what the criticism is.

3) Augusta - Hootie ruined Mac and Jones' course

4) Cypress Point - Weak finish.  Many consider the 18th to be a bad hole.

5) Oakmont - Too relentless and difficult

6) Pebble Beach - Too many average holes

7) Merion - Don't know of any weaknesses

Winged Foot - see Oakmont

9) Seminole - overrated

9) Crystal Downs - another GCA sacred cow although it is a bit short for the modern game

10) Medinah - Treedinah

11) Sand Hills - GCA sacred cow (or as close as there is to it)

[Adam Clayman]

Recently had this discussion about Shinney and the national. It was logically concluded that professionals prefer Shinney and Ams preferred the National.

Seems like a nice way to leave things. Especially if you want to know how act and think like a pro.

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is the current Golf Digest top 12 (Sand Hills is 12th so this is not an arbitrary cutoff).  I will attempt to paraphrase the most common criticism of the course if I know it:

1) Pine Valley - Don't know.  Maybe a bit overtreed until recently but I don't know what else is wrong with it.

2) Shinnecock - Aside from the fact that the Flynnophiles prefer the old Flynn tee on the Redan, I don't know what the criticism is.

3) Augusta - Hootie ruined Mac and Jones' course

4) Cypress Point - Weak finish.  Many consider the 18th to be a bad hole.

5) Oakmont - Too relentless and difficult

6) Pebble Beach - Too many average holes

7) Merion - Don't know of any weaknesses

Winged Foot - see Oakmont

9) Seminole - overrated

9) Crystal Downs - another GCA sacred cow although it is a bit short for the modern game

10) Medinah - Treedinah

11) Sand Hills - GCA sacred cow (or as close as there is to it)

This type of talk in the ivory towers of America is not far from dog fighting in the ghetto.  I guess it happens but nobody would believe it.

[Rich Goodale]

Just to set the record straight.....

Tom

I never pooh-pooh'ed Cypress.  I've always said it is one of the  very few 3*** courses in the world.  I think and have always thought that 1, 17 and 18 are flawed.  The other 15 are world class, even 16, where you continue to miss the irony of my asessment which is, in effect, "Driver, putt, putt--what's the big deal," but then the tragic flaw of the Jesuits is that they have never understood irony.

John

I quit the board once about 5 years ago, before you discovered this board or even asphaltic concrete.  My last sabbatical resulted from my being 86'ed and once they figured out the error of their ways, the package they gave me only started with the Feature Interview #3.  Suffice it to say that I will never have to buy another golf tee in my life.

Rich

As for the question, all but one or two of the annointed courses (not Cypress of NGLA, Huck!) have (slightly) disappointed me.  Most have lived up to or exceeded the hype.  The one that blew me away the most was Pebble Beach in 1976.  It was (and still is in my memory, at least) almost on another planet.

RFG

[Tom Huckaby]

Just to set the record straight.....

Tom

I never pooh-pooh'ed Cypress.  I've always said it is one of the  very few 3*** courses in the world.  I think and have always thought that 1, 17 and 18 are flawed.  The other 15 are world class, even 16, where you continue to miss the irony of my asessment which is, in effect, "Driver, putt, putt--what's the big deal," but then the tragic flaw of the Jesuits is that they have never understood irony.

John

I quit the board once about 5 years ago, before you discovered this board or even asphaltic concrete.  My last sabbatical resulted from my being 86'ed and once they figured out the error of their ways, the package they gave me only started with the Feature Interview #3.  Suffice it to say that I will never have to buy another golf tee in my life.

Rich

As for the question, all but one or two of the annointed courses (not Cypress of NGLA, Huck!) have (slightly) disappointed me.  Most have lived up to or exceeded the hype.  The one that blew me away the most was Pebble Beach in 1976.  It was (and still is in my memory, at least) almost on another planet.

RFG

Rich:  fair enough.  I just surely do recall many more negative statements besides what you say here.

As for irony, I only went to a Jesuit college.  I was free from them for the prior 12 years of education.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Everyone loves Pacfic Grove.  Whether it's the pleasant surprise or the low green fee, everyone loves it. Even the caddies from St Andrews preferred it to it's bigger neighbors. Grant it, it suited their games better than the Americanized versions of the Company courses.

Adam:

Not to burst your bubble, but I know PLENTY of people who have no love for Pacific Grove.  If you want to amend it to "everyone loves 11-16" then I'm with you.  But everyone loves Pacific Grove just ain't true.  And it's enough for many people to NOT seek out the course because to them it has only seven worthwhile holes.

Misguided as they may be, they do exist.

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