Can a Super get too old?

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Okay, you win. You know more than the super you have, or anyone in the golf biz.  Just out of curiosity, if you don't think his opinion is right, have you or anyone requested he use the USGA or an outside agromist for a second opinion on the fans?  A second set of eyes never hurt.

Why don't you read to us from the irrigation records how much water he put out at various times vs. the ET.  I would be curious to know how and when he overwatered.  Thanks.

Jeff,

If you call winning paying $600 a month dues at a course that is being kept in unplayable condition under the rules of golf then I just hit the lottery.  I know it is bad form to question any move a super ever makes.  I did try to discuss this with him by reponding to his emails reporting on his pending decisions and was told to stop talking to the guy.  I am learning from this thread and I hope he does too.  I am not the only member who has tried to open a dialog and been shut down.  The only thing I can hang my hat on is that we have at least ten other courses in the immeadiate area and we are the only course with dead greens.  I do not want to see the guy lose his job..I just want him to open his eyes and listen to someone besides another salesman.  He has even refused to talk to other supers who have lived and worked in this "transition" area for years.  You think I'm winning...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

I worked with DD down at Wild Wing. Great Super and a great guy all around!

John,

I know its frustrating to have bad conditions, even temporarily and especially at those prices.  But I have heard the same complaints - loud if not always logical - at all price point golf courses, so that explains the skeptisim in my posts.

You didn't answer my question about a paid consultant directly, but if your portrayal is correct, he doesn't seem to want to go to other qualified guys to help.  I have had some troubles with supers on my courses listening to sales people only, and I do again encourage admitting that he needs help with a few specific problems, which doesn't cast light on his overall ability.

There is a great traditions of supers helping one another, esp. if he is coming in from a different region and he should at least take advantage of that.  However, there is no adivce like paid advice, rather than free advice from salesmen or even well intentioned supers.  Like gca's, they probably have enough trouble keeping up with their own day to day problems and projects to be of substantial day to day help.

While my USGA example would suggest that if you are the only course in an area with struggling (again, I didn't see them dead) greens, it might suggest you have a unique problem beyond weather.  That doesn't mean its the super, per se, but that there is something unique in your microclimate or maintenance practices.  

All I am saying is it just needs more examination of almost every aspect if fans have been tried and are not working.  Some consultants are great at picking up on things like that. If the greens went south just after switching fertilzer or chemical suppliers, or a particular maintenance practice, maybe that could give a clue as to what exactly went wrong.

That said, air circulation still looks like a factor from those photos to me and if nothing else, in the transition zone, it ain't helping at all and may be hurting.  And, I am not suggesting that the super hasn't done all of the above to some degree. But, if the problem persists, then he needs to keep looking.

John, please give me a timeline of the first photo to the last, as well as the approximate date of Ran's photo.  Do I understand this green was poor earlier this year, but now is looking much better?  But now other greens look rather poor?

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,

I'm done..I have already joined another course in town with good greens so I have someplace to play when this course is down.  I will continue to pay dues as long as they allow, who knows after this thread hits the fan, and hope someone comes up with a solution.  I can not discuss this anymore for a while as I am starting to lash out at my family, employees and friends.  Like I have said before, I have such a great life that the worst thing going for me are these greens.  Everyone should have it so good.

[TEPaul]

Personally, I think some of these youngish supers bring a ton of interesting ideas to the table and most of them aren't stuck in the old over-irrigated days and mentality.

But....but, when the shit hits the fan on the course bigtime, give me an old seasoned super almost every time. In my opinion, they just seem to be more measured and don't try every conceivable fix instantly.

I think grass prefers it that way. I think they know from OJT experience some of the odd and unique ways grass can fix itself.

[igrowgrass]

I do have a question for the supers who I understand might be getting offended by all of this.  How long after punch holes have healed should a membership have before the greens are punched again?  Should greens have continuous punch holes so they can remain healthy?

How many times were they aerified before Dan got there?  If he is punching as many times as it seems, it could be a maintenance program to try and eliminate the accumulated thatch.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Sorry to wear you out with logic.... enjoy your second club.  Good to see you are flexible enough to develop work arounds.

[John Kavanaugh]

I do have a question for the supers who I understand might be getting offended by all of this.  How long after punch holes have healed should a membership have before the greens are punched again?  Should greens have continuous punch holes so they can remain healthy?

How many times were they aerified before Dan got there?  If he is punching as many times as it seems, it could be a maintenance program to try and eliminate the accumulated thatch.  

That is the party line.  It is our only hope.

[Don_Mahaffey]

This is turning into a "stay away" thread for a super...but I'm going to add one thing.
After spending many years around supers...at local, regional and national gatherings...my one bitch about what I hear way to much is...it's the other guys fault. Here's the real deal...once you take a position you are the guy...and blaming your problems on your predecessors is just not right…especially if it goes on after the first year. If you take a job...you own it...period.  

[Joe Hancock]

Geez, to think somewhere in this thread, the topic actually discussed grandbabies......

Joe

[Tim Copeland]

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Theodore Roosevelt
26th President of the United States

[Ray Richard]

As a former superintendent these comments really bring up some memories about golf course turf management.

  John’s super has a real communication problem. He should be flooding the membership with information about what is happening. You can't only placate the powerful committee members, you need to be communicating with EVERYBODY.

 He should be informing every single member either by website, letter, or phone.  The one member you miss is the one who is seething with rage (to paraphrase Machiavelli). You can’t have any golfer/member/customer bent out of shape about any aspect of your course management.

  Turf management is really managing“food,air,water” with an infinite number of angles and impacts. If he can’t figure it out PR on his own, hire a professional communications individual to advise the club and the superintendent. You can get people like this from SCORE (Service Core of Retired Executives) who have volunteers experienced in crisis communications. You can also get help from colleges such Penn State and Michigan State, who provide PhD’s to advise for a modest fee. I learned the hard way, the more problems you have, the more communicative you need to be.

[Michael_Stachowicz]

This is turning into a "stay away" thread for a super...but I'm going to add one thing.
After spending many years around supers...at local, regional and national gatherings...my one bitch about what I hear way to much is...it's the other guys fault. Here's the real deal...once you take a position you are the guy...and blaming your problems on your predecessors is just not right…especially if it goes on after the first year. If you take a job...you own it...period.  

I think that this is doing a disservice to many greenkeepers who take over tough jobs or an ailing course.  My current job has taken me three years to remove the thatch accumulation, repair irrigation and drainage, and recover from the results of overwatering.  You can turn a course around in a year with the right commitment from the membership and a large enough budget.  Most people are accepting of the 3 to 5 year plan and I would say after this period the baby is yours.

I do agree with Ray, communication is the key.  It gets tough the longer you are at a place to answer the same questions over and over again or communicate the same point over and over again, but it has to be done.  I heard that some advertising companies say that a group of people have to hear something 12 times before 50% of them remember it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ray,

I would not be fair or honest if I did not respond to your post by saying that our super has done everything and used every medium to communicate his ideas and intent.  It is his well documented belief that a course that was once great can no longer be great because of where it was built that gets my goat.

[JMEvensky]

I think TEPaul gets the hope/fear for most efforts to replace a Super.A lot of people believe the older Super gets set in his ways and a younger guy might be more receptive to doing things differently-especially regarding irrigation.

People see the course down the street with the new,young super and wonder why,all of a sudden,they can do without so much water on their course.

This thing divides memberships into a group who say "replace" at all cost and one which defends the current Super to the death.Probably,99.9% of those arguing have no clue about the facts either way.The whole thing gets personal,when everyone wants the same thing-a well maintained golf course.

I don't envy Supers their jobs.

[Joe Hancock]

Michael,

I spoke with Don this morning, and he clarified his comments:

It's not about getting a course back in shape in one year, it's about not playing the blame game any more. No one wants to relive past mistakes or regimes, they want solutions and progress. Don was fortunate to have a mentor early in his career who carefully gave Don that advice.

As for everything else, every site has issues. There aren't any climates or soils that are ideal in every way. The key is to be aware of pitfalls, and do everything possible to avoid
problems...even if that means doing less.

Joe

[Tom_Doak]

John K:

Just curious ... are the greens dead at Quail Crossing now, too?  Some years in your part of the world are very difficult.

[John Kavanaugh]

John K:

Just curious ... are the greens dead at Quail Crossing now, too?  Some years in your part of the world are very difficult.

The greens at Quail Crossing are perfect.  I think they have every bit as much slope as at Victoria and they are also bent grass no more then 2 miles away.

[LBaker]

On first blush I would say the "old" super has a decent chance to get you out of a similar mess to the other two fields you selected...plane engine trouble or major surgery...we've got a guy, that is really only old because he's had the job for a long time, that can really grow grass. He's weathered a couple seasons recently that wiped out several local courses and barely showed his sweat...the more I travel around to other courses in my area, the more I realize I'm happy to stay at home...

Jes,  How's things?  The reason why your super doesn't sweat is because he had fantastic assistants.  You know, the young guys that are vogue.  I believe there is a right person for every job.  A good superintendent is good because he or she is an excellent communicator.  It's that simple.  In my opinion, managing a golf course isn't rocket science.  You just have to be paying attention all the time.  Sully, say hello to Sr. for me.  

[JESII]

Will do Lindsay, good to hear from you...

Good point about the assistants...

[Pat Brockwell]

The Old Pro at the course where I grew up took me aside when I got my degree and first Superintendent job and told me the two main reasons that Supers lost jobs where, in order, chemical salesmen and weather. John- its golf, not life and death.  If the guy needs firing, it doesn't take long for everyone to know it. " No matter what happens, just keep hitting the ball." Harry Vardon.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I do not want the guy fired.  I just want him to genuinely listen to membership concerns.  Even at this rate I think everything will be fine in five years after he replaces all the grass on the greens and intalls 15 more fans.  I just need to find the patience and $35,000 in dues in the meantime.

[Eric Morrison]

Interesting...the only comment i would like to make...
Did anyone see that hole layout with NINE tees??? Hope they have a lot of mowers

[John Kavanaugh]

I wish they would turn the holes around and put flags in the tees. For those who thought the course would be fine for labor day please note that since we have almost completely recovered from our July 2nd aerification we are scheduled for green aerification immediately following Labor Day weekend (Tuesday, Sept. 4 th) and again starting Sept. 17.  Once is never enough...good bye fall.

[Kyle Harris]

John, what sort of aeration is being done? They pulling cores or just hitting it with pencil tines? If he rolls if right after, you may not even notice.

Is he expecting a better set of conditions in two weeks? I remember reading you were having green trouble, why put the plant under MORE stress?

[John Kavanaugh]

It will be deep full core aeriation both times.  This is his second year on the job and says after this he will only deep core in May and Sept next year...Killing the prime Indiana golfing seasons of spring and fall....genius.

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