Can a Super get too old?

[JMEvensky]

To start,this question is purely hypothetical for me.It came up yesterday as an off-shoot to some possible examples of experience being trumped by younger professionals who "grew up" with the current technology in their respective fields.

As examples,a retired commercial pilot(military trained)said that in an emergency,he would rather have a young pilot flying the plane rather than an older,more experienced one because the older pilot would have re-learned what the younger would have learned from the beginning.(I don't know enough about flying to argue one way or the other).

A surgeon followed with something similar when describing the "video-game" nature of some surgeries.He thought that there might be advantage in the younger surgeon never knowing any other way.

Today,technology seems to have given golf courses all kinds of new playtoys and methods.New grasses,new chemicals,new machinery-the products keep coming,the technology keeps changing.

Would a younger Super be "advantaged" by growing up with this new stuff?Can an old Super be taught new tricks?

To any Supers who might take offense at my question-I mean none.The question came up in a discussion after Sunday golf.I know enough to admit that I can't answer the question.I'm hoping some on here can.-JME

[Joel_Stewart]

When we changed supers 5 years ago the new guy with fresh eyes had a bunch of new ideas.  He also had very good organizational skills, little things around the yard that made a big difference.  It really worked out well for the club and himself since he won super of the year for his region and the turf conditions improved 100%.

[Ray Richard]

  I can tell you first hand that the golf superintendent occupation is a young mans business. I know that there are a group of graying, seasoned superintendents in command of some good, bad and indifferent layouts but young superintendents are in vogue now.  The thinking has gone from “he’s been a greenkeeper for 35 years so he must be good”  to “he’s got a four year degree and he worked for three years at Winged Foot so he must be the next best thing”. Of course the three years at WF could have been changing cups or running a string trimmer.

  I think an older superintendent can succeed if he doesn’t “rust on his laurels”. They need to be open minded, active in GCSAA certification programs, and very good at communications.  The burnout from golf course superintending is a concern, but the experience gained by many years of stress, managing tough employees and tougher members, can be critical during a stressful turf event.

 

[JESII]

On first blush I would say the "old" super has a decent chance to get you out of a similar mess to the other two fields you selected...plane engine trouble or major surgery...we've got a guy, that is really only old because he's had the job for a long time, that can really grow grass. He's weathered a couple seasons recently that wiped out several local courses and barely showed his sweat...the more I travel around to other courses in my area, the more I realize I'm happy to stay at home...

[Don_Mahaffey]

...like Joe Hancock old?
Joe and I are the same age...but Joe's a grand pa and I have a 1 year old in the house...who do you think acts older ?

[JSPayne]

Speaking from the prospective of a hopeful future superintendent, I will say that it completely depends on the individual superintendent.

I have worked for several "seasoned" superintendents who were nothing short of superb. Not only because of their wealth of practical experience (as well as higher education experience in some cases....some older superintendents continue their education to improve business, communication and turf skills) and ability to stay calm in seemingly unnerving situations, but also because they value their job, the profession and have made it a point to stay on top of new research, ideas, and surround themselves with interns and assistants who they can both teach and learn from with new eyes and ideas.

Contrastingly, there are older superintendents who grew up knowing one way, and it worked for years on end and to some extent their "old school methods" still work. Every superintendent should be an expert in tried and true methods. But these "stick to the routine" superintendents often lack the forward and progressive thinking needed to help many course not only survive, but thrive in an ever-more-difficult golf economy.

As for young superintendents, almost being one myself, I feel the best path and determination of quality is (1) definetely possessing a turf degree (there is too much good stuff coming out of the colleges now, even beyond turf knowledge, to not have a degree) and (2) having had a variety of on course experiences and well-respected and admirable mentors. Bright, open, technology-savy young minds coupled with the right direction and oversight by a seasoned veteren make for an excellent "up and coming" superintendent.

And conversly here as well, I have known a couple fellow turf students that have tried their hand at the fast track, have already tried becoming superintendents and have gotten in way over their head and had to change career paths after a hard crash and burn. Not fun for a young super or a golf course.

In short, I think the best "seasoned" supers are obvious, the courses and tournaments they manage show it. And the courses that are just hanging in there and meeting the industry standard under a greenskeeper who's "been there forever" might just benefit from a well-mentored young super who's not afraid to take initiative and give the course a rebirth in a move that would not only help the course and golfers but his career as well.

[John Kavanaugh]

They can sure as hell can be too young if you give them a blank check.  You can't think one year is the wettest in history and the next the hottest unless you have no history.  Young supers and highway engineers give me douche chills.  I know because I was one.

Is there a single occupation outside of the entertainment industry where younger is better...Let a guy get at least six years out of college before you give him your course.

[paul cowley]

I would much rather have a seasoned Super who can deal with variables, than an up and comer who can only grow grass if he has the latest [read expensive] system.

I generally prefer a 'we will figure it out' approach, than a 'no can do unless I have this' attitude.

[Joe Hancock]

...like Joe Hancock old?
Joe and I are the same age...but Joe's a grand pa and I have a 1 year old in the house...who do you think acts older ?

The question is, who do you think is smarter?.....

Don, you're the perfect man to be a new daddy at my age...

Joe

[Joe Hancock]

I would much rather have a seasoned Super who can deal with variables, than an up and comer who can only grow grass if he has the latest [read expensive] system.

I generally prefer a 'we will figure it out' approach, than a 'no can do unless I have this' attitude.

Paul,

A long time ago, I had a friend, also a super, who was touring my course with me. He proceeded to tell me how bad a job I was doing, and that I was screwing up....because I would do anything to give them a good product even though my equipment and irrigation were crap.

I guess I was young and naive.

Joe

[JESII]

Joe,

"generally" is not always...

[igrowgrass]

I don't think its a matter of young or old, can that Superintendent provide you with the conditions you want?  That should really be the only question that matters.  In any profession you have to keep up with changing times or fall behind the curve.

[Michael_Stachowicz]

I have always thought it remarkable to see many of the legend type superintendents sitting in the first row at educational conferences.  These guys know how to stay fresh and work hard at it.

As for young supers, they can bring some great ideas and long passionate hours to the course, but the lack of experience can make them expensive...budget wise and mistake wise.

The saying goes young supers make there mark by spending money and the older keep their jobs by saving money.

I think we are close to the point where agronomy skills are becoming equal amongst us all.  The future of the greenkeeping profession will be in how we manage the budget, our employees, and the course...the whole package.

[Mike_Young]

I think "Old" is a state of mind for most.....I would say a supt cant get too old but he can be come too hardheaded.....as we all can.....

[Tom Jefferson]

Interesting conversation.......What does "too old" mean?
I know that 'age' is just a number, and a state of mind, an attitude.  

I like to think that at nearly 59, I am 'better than ever', more able to juggle all the balls we are asked to, more able to see the 'big picture' and yet to focus on the moment, more able to manage myself and others well.
 
I do acknowledge it is harder to show up early, that I want the time really early in the day for my own personal/spiritual needs, and that that one point is my current most pressing issue.
I know that the fire to do good work still burns, as brightly as ever.

Technology will always evolve, whereas matters of personal responsiblility and integrity, often borne of many years of maturing, are constant and unchanging.  I certainly feel that my judgement in the workplace, 'wisdom' if you will, is much stronger and honed, than at any time in the past....and what that probably means is that I was seriously flawed when I was younger, and am slightly less flawed today!!!

Having said all that, I see countless young, educated, and inspiring men and women in the profession, who are smart, focused, grounded, and inspired, and I would not hesitate, were I an owner, to consider their skills when hiring someone for so important a task as managing a golf course.

Have a great day,
Tom

[Joe Hancock]

Tom Jefferson,

I have a hard time believing you are 59!!!!!!

After all, with the wealth of wisdom you possess, I'd have said you had to be at least 60.......

Joe

p.s. You don't look a day over 58.....

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't think one can get too old for the job, but one can get bored, cynical or burned out, and many do.  I believe supers have one of the higher divorce rates, on account of hours spent on the job, etc.  

When they do burn out, they may still love the turf side, but hate the politics, as near as I can tell.  Many who do get out of it go to the sales side for suppliers and distributors of products they know.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm getting the impression you guys want to throw 45 year old men with three kids under the bus for some college educated twit with oversized sunglasses and a pressed golf shirt.  A couple of the genuis ideas our young super came out with this year are closing the range at 3 pm so he can prepare it for our guests the next morning and giving himself the first tee time every Saturday morning so we can discuss our questions about the course with him.  This means we either play with him instead of our friends or show up at the course an extra half hour early.  Both are transparent as hell and any super with experience would know better than to assume the membership is that stupid.  The genius even punched the greens July 2nd when the 4th fell on a Wednesday with zero notice to the membership.  Nice to plan a round with family on the 4th and get to play on crap greens.  I don't think memberships should be forced to train kids on how to deal with people issues no matter how high their grade point.

[Anthony_Nysse]

John, John, John....
   I know your superintendent, who he mentored under and where he has worked previously and I also know the grasses that he deals with at Victoria National. Dan mentored under on of the best superintendents in the country when it comes to growing healthy bentgrass in the transition zone. His mentor also hosted the 1996 US Open. Dan's father, like mine, has also been a superintendent in Michigan for well over 30 years.
  Knowing that Vic has L-93 bentgrass on all playing surface, but not knowing the weather conditoning that you've experienced this summer, let me take a stab as to why he aerified
 1. The heat has been so that the greens need to be opened up so that they can breath. Bentgrass shuts down above 86, 87 degrees and it can be VERY difficult when the nightime lows don't get into the 60's. The open holes help cool the plant and allow it's gasses to release. Waiting 2 more days could have meant the loss of grass....
 2. Possible that with the high temps and rain-too much moisture on bentgrass in the transition zone will cause many things, including root rot, pythium, bentgrass decline among others. Any of these diseases can take a plant to near death overnight and leave you nothing but mud. Aerifying in the summer allows for a better survival with bentgrass in the transition zone.
 I find it VERY hard to believe that Dan closes the range at 3pm everyday to prepare for the next day. That's six hours prior to darkness.
  So what if he takes a tee time on Saturday morning. Be thankful that your superintendent is allowing himself to be accessable. Dan was a pretty good high school player. Maybe you should play with him, ask him "why this" and "why that", instead of bitching about his dicisions on gca. I'm sure that he's not assuming that the membership it that stupid, but apparently you didn't know why he had to aerify on such short notice...!?! You'll be thankful that he did when you have grass on your greens and they are flawless by labor day. Most member don't have a clue as to why superintendents do what they do. He's trying to educate you...let him.
  There are several clubs in my region that aerify their bentgrass greens in some capacity every month-It helps the greens survive. If you want to have the best playing surfaces in areas of the country where they struggle, you have to sacrifice a bit as a member.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[SL_Solow]

I have been out a few days but I have to pitch in on this one.  As a few of you know, I have been Green Chair or Pres. of my club for almost 15 years and have been involved in this area for the Chicago District Golf association for about 10 years.  Call me an educated layman.

Our Greenkeeper (his term) has been with us since 1960 when he was 30 years old.  Two years ago he was named Superintendent of the Year by Golfweek's Super News.  While Paul is not as spry as he once might have been, he continues to do a fantastic job.  We are beginning to talk about retirement and emeritus status and I only hope that we can find someone who is nearly as knowledgable and dedicated.  So age is not a limiting factor in my experience.  There are many outstanding young Greenkeepers with whom I am acquainted.  There are some who are not so terrific notwithstanding wonderful resumes.  The same is true for some of the older folks.  To me, the separating factors are dedication and talent.  Just as in all businesses some are more talented than others and all other things being relatively equal, talent wins out.  But in the grass growing business, dedication and the attendant love of the job really makes a difference.  The job requires long hours, constant vigilance, little glamour, and the requirement of dealing with members who think they are experts.  It takes a special person to cope with these problems and stay on top of new developments while continuing to deal with the mundane duties which arise every day.

So superintendents can burn out or they can get complacent and let developments pass them by.  But that is not an age related issue; it comes down to the measure of the man.  I have seen several clubs move a competent professional just because they think its "time for a change."  Too often they regret it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ant,

I am a dues paying member of five clubs, why do you think I was talking about Dan?  Does everyone know our greens have been dead for two years now?  I am not making this up about the range being closed at 3pm (we are allowed to drive a half mile to the back range if we are desparate to practice..eliminating the pre-game warm up)  A 7:50 tee time on Saturday does not make a super accessable...If he really wanted to talk to us he would tee off closer to 8:30 so we could catch him on the range.  I am not an expert on agronomy so I am not sure what a guy in the business would consider sacrifice by a member.  Is asking for 30 playable days a year too much?  Is asking not to have fans installed on every green too much?  Is asking not to have the greens regrasses with a new blend because a guy can not grow what was installed just 6 years ago too much?  I ask you because I am no longer allowed to ask Dan since my questions were hurting his feelings.  Since he is your buddy maybe you can be a peacemaker as I don't enjoy playing dead greens in a state of confusion.

[Anthony_Nysse]

John,
  Dan was a classmate that graduated before me. I'll respond more when time allows, but it seems to me that a big part of your problem is understanding that you have a cool season grass in the trasition zone which makes it difficult to maintain a healty plan in the summer, hence the fans. That is the same reason that Southern Hills had them at this years PGA-Air movement. It's vital to the health of the turf in the summer. MANY high end courses that have bentgrass have fans up in the summer...take a look around.
  Didn't Vic just hold the 2006 Senior AM....Greens sure didn't look dead then.
  Lastly, our interns just left to go back to school. One had worked at Victoria National for the last 2 season...NEVER once did he comment about the greens being dead...are you overexadurating? hmmmm

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI,

[David Lott]

One of the toughest things a superintendent has to do is deal with the members, and particularly the greens and grounds committee, or its equivalent. The super has to resist bad ideas, plant and nurture good ones and generally educate the powers that be on what can and can not reasonably be expected within the budget and the nature of the course.

This skill is partly a function of personality and also partly one of experience and maturity. Three years at Winged Foot--or a Phd. in agronomy--will not give someone the personal skills necessary to sell the best approaches to the members/owners.

Age can be a plus in this endeavor, but with age can also come frustration, resignation and a loss of will to fight the fight.

Depends on the individual, of course, but also on the powers that be at the course, and whether they encourage independence and frankness.

[David Lott]

Let me emphasize my point with a few questions.

How often do your members praise the super for his hard work and sacrifices? And how often to his face?

How often do members complain? How often to the super's face?

How effective is your golf/grounds committee at communicating--or permitting the super to communicate--what the challenges, trade-offs and limitations are?

What must get "old" at times are mindless complaints from membership.

[Jeff_Brauer]

If I were a superintendent, I would get tired of answering "yes, we really do need to punch those holes in the greens...."  I am surprised a few more supers haven't gone postal over just that question alone.

I get tired of answering maintenance questions from the guys at my club as a somewhat related expert. (in their minds, not mine)  Every question starts in tone, if not words, with the presumption that the guy doesn't know his ass from the cup he places in the ground.

I think it would be the tone of voice and general attitude that would get me most.  Not all clubs are like that, luckily, and its probably every golfer voicing one complaint a year, and a few voicing them constantly, but boy, the super hears it too much.

Just my humble opinion.  I would need a punching bag in the office to deal...just sayin

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