Which course has the most unusual looking first three holes?

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

Since you've seen Painswick, you really don't need to see NGLA.  The latter is just a poor imitation of the former.

Rich

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

Since you've seen Painswick, you really don't need to see NGLA.  The latter is just a poor imitation of the former.

Rich

Rich

A harsh and somewhat reasonable (certainly expected) response.  I will agree that I don't need to see NGLA, but not for the reason you cited.  As things stand, I will take your word for it.  My chances of ever seeing NGLA are about the same as you gaining a proper understanding of Carnoustie.

Ciao

Whatever....

[Evan_Smith]

I too have yet (hopefully yet) to play NGLA.  Of the courses I've personally played, the first three at Portstewart stand out as the most memorable opening holes.  The first being a smashing downhill, dogleg right par 4 with one of the greatest views in golf.  The second is a quirky shorter downhill, and then uphill par 4 amongst huge dunes with the sea crashing behind you (albeit, about a hundred yards behind).  The third is a long, downhill par 3 with another great view of the surrounding area/dunes.  Toss in some wind and it becomes thrilling and scary!!!

[Mark Pearce]

Elie?

Opening drive is completely blind over a steep hill, second a short (driveable for the flat bellies?) uphill par 4 with a skyline green.  Three a downhill 214 yard par 3 with a wall and road behind the green, steeply inclined right half of the green and an outcrop of the hill on which the secondgreen sits obscuring the right hand edge of the green.

[Rich Goodale]

Cypress could fit the bill.  Completely blind drive over a severely manicured hedge, then a bite off as much as you can chew either over the barranca (left) or into the patio of some dot.com gazillionaire (right) par-5, and then a terrifically and conventionally boring par-3.

Or, how about Spyglass?  Mysterious power-snap hook off the 1st tee, then incredible "death or golory" second to the green sitting in the sand and iceplant, then a great short 4 up into the sky, and then a terrifically and conventionally boring par-3.

Or .....

[Adrian_Stiff]

CHURCH STRETTON opens with three par 3 holes, that must have something pretty 'unusual' about it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

I think Prestwick is a good choice.

John Kirk,

I was also thinking about the unique nature of the first three at Pacific Dunes.

Rich Goodale,

I happen to disagree with the theory that # 1 at NGLA was always intended to be # 10, and have had numerous discussions with George Bahto on the subject.

The immense void between # 18 and # 1 and the length of
# 1 and # 2 lead me to believe that the present 10th was only a temporary 1st hole due to the convenience and location of the Shinnecock Inn, and that CBM always intended his clubhouse to be at its present site with the current configuration of # 1 and # 18 starting and finishing at that location.

One must also consider that NGLA didn't own the land behind the present 10th green in the early days.

[TEPaul]

Richard the Double Dunce said:

"Macdonald the Great chose to start with 3 only slightly above average holes when he built NGLA.  Some Commitee improved upon that by switching the 9's and building a new clubhosue down the hill."

Richard the DD:

You don't know much about the creation of NGLA, do you?

I doubt any "committee" decided to switch the nines at NGLA. Everything that happened there in those days was pretty much the decision of one man only and I think most all of us (apparently other than you) know who that was.


On another note entirely, the automatic defensiveness you show on threads like these ones about GB courses vis-a-vis American courses is remarkable. But it does bring up another potentially interesting subject for a thread. This is something that raged on in the beginning of the last century to a degree most of us today probably don't realize.

During the Schnectedy putter issue even the President of the United States weighed in on the issue and the disagreement between GB and the US.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
You have to admit that some courses (actually many) in GB would qualify.  Which ones that you have walked or played would you choose?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
You have to admit that some courses (actually many) in GB would qualify.  Which ones that you have walked or played would you choose?"

Mark:

I have very limited experience with GB courses but one I would pick would be North Berwick that has already been mentioned. I'd pick at least the first hole. The other two aren't really that unusual other than the stone walls across them.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I think one could make a very good case that NGLA only has a hole or two that isn't unusual looking, or has something about it that's very unusual looking. I can't imagine there's a golf course anywhere else in America that one could say that about.

I think it'd be pretty hard to deny that's one of the things that makes NGLA pretty special in the history of American architecture.

The important point, though, is that they are all good holes. I've seen plenty of holes over here that are unusual looking that aren't very good---that don't make all that much sense in play, in my opinion.

On the other hand, I've seen a lot of unusual holes over here that are really good. I've just never seen three in a row at the beginning of a course that are as unusual looking as NGLA's.

However, probably the most interesting point of all, is, despite what can be said about NGLA in this way, for whatever reasons the flow and evolution of American architecture did not choose to follow NGLA's lead in this way. Or, at the very least, not for long.

This is one of the most interesting subjects of all involving American golf course architecture, at least to me.

[michael j fay]

I'd go with Brae Burn in Boston:

# 1. Straight away 310 yards, elevated tee, narrowing nearer the brook that is 10 yards short of the green. Evil green with no recovery right, left or long.

# 2. Uphill 296 yard par four that allows the player to hit 6 iron to driver to an array of ever smaller landing areas. Woods left, death to the right. Green is fronted by a chasm like bunker and surrounded by deep unforgiving bunkers. Two level green with great internal movement. Bobby Jones said it was the best short four par he had experienced.

# 3. Uphill 342 yard par four with OB right and ungodly grasses left. The green is obscured by a sudden rise in the fairway just beyond a cross bunker. Green is set back some 25 yards from the crest of the hill throwing off depth perception. Very difficult up and down from short of the green. No chance long. Green has more movement than a prune juice tasting.

Three holes, total length 952 yards, reachable in regulation by your grandmother, total par of 12 and the best players find themselves lucky to walk to the fourth tee even or one over.

[TEPaul]

Michael:

I can name you three holes in a row that total a par of 12 that can top those three at Brae Burn for shortness by a ton. These three in a row aren't the first three but for combined shortness I don't think you could top the so-called "Quirky Corner" (6-8) on Merion West.

They total about 666 yards, a significant number indeed.

[Glenn Spencer]

Gleneagles (Kings) threw me for a loop at the beginning.

[Rich Goodale]

Richard the Double Dunce said:

"Macdonald the Great chose to start with 3 only slightly above average holes when he built NGLA.  Some Commitee improved upon that by switching the 9's and building a new clubhosue down the hill."

Richard the DD:

You don't know much about the creation of NGLA, do you?

I doubt any "committee" decided to switch the nines at NGLA. Everything that happened there in those days was pretty much the decision of one man only and I think most all of us (apparently other than you) know who that was.


On another note entirely, the automatic defensiveness you show on threads like these ones about GB courses vis-a-vis American courses is remarkable. But it does bring up another potentially interesting subject for a thread. This is something that raged on in the beginning of the last century to a degree most of us today probably don't realize.

During the Schnectedy putter issue even the President of the United States weighed in on the issue and the disagreement between GB and the US.

Tom

Great to see that I have graduated from "Triple Dunce" DDD!  Also great to hear you admit thgat you know virtually nothing about courses in the UK and Ireland.  Of course, we all knew that, anyway....

I've got a "Schenecdety" putter at home that was once touched by Francis Ouimet.  It sucks.

Cheers

Ricardo the Incomparable

[JESII]

For unusual looking I would throw Royal New Kent in the mix...I've not been to many of the others previously stated but 1 and 2 at Spyglass are certainly memorable looking.


1, 2 and 3 at Royal New Kent left me totally amazed my first time through...

[Phil McDade]

The opening trio at Stonehaven near Aberdeen, a quirk-lover's dream, is pretty good:

-- Opener is 305 yard downhill par 4, with a tee hard by the clubhouse and the North Sea beckoning in the distance. Watch out for golfers playing the 18th that crosses the 1st fairway. OB, cliffs, and a church cemetery right for slicers, Hitler's bunker (a depression caused by a fleeing German fighter plane dropping its bombs during the Big One) catches pulls left.

-- No. 2 is a 203-yard par 3 over the cliff-edge; one step to the right on the tee, and you might fall into the North Sea. Not for those who are wary of exposed, cliff-hugging, wind-swept tee boxes. For those playing low to avoid the stern winds found on this course, beware of the blind bunkers fronting the green.

-- No. 3 is a 311-yard par 4 along the cliff edge; right is OB, as well as death real and imagined. Of course, the severely sloped left-to-right fairway doesn't help hold the ball away from the right side.

Slightly more than 800 yards of fun stuff to open; the rest of the course is equally quirky, including the incredibly steep, downhill, crosses TWO fairways, par 4 5th -- Jake's View!

[David Stamm]

Because of the nature of the holes relative to what comes afterwards, Spyglass fits the bill for me. Obviously, it's really the first 5, but the afterwards is so different, it almost feels like you walked onto the wrong 6th tee.

[Bill_McBride]

Wouldn't that hilly course in Britain also qualify named, um...you know, that 4800 yard billy goat track everyone raves about.

Painswick?  Its challenge for this contest is that there are more unusual holes to come after the first three.

MOST of the holes at Painswick are pretty unusual, to say the least!  

[James Bennett]

Actually, the most unusual first three holes I have encountered confused the whisky out of one FBD like I have never seen a golfer confused so early in a round.

St Andrews The Old Course, in REVERSE.  

Not everyone struggled as much, but Martin was doing a pretty good impression of My Favourite Martian after three holes.

James B

[Jay Flemma]

How does Tobacco Road rate?

I was thinking Royal New Kent, but The Road is a good choice too.

Maybe True Blue as well...

[A.G._Crockett]

At the risk of being hopelessly provincial, I have a hard time imagining a more unusual first three than Tobacco Road.  

A par 5 with not one but two blind shots, followed by a par 4 with what amounts to a split fairway of wildly different lengths, followed by a par 3 with a green that is about 40 yds. deep with 3 levels and waste area all around it.  

Just a wild start to a wild place.

[TEPaul]

"I've got a "Schenecdety" putter at home that was once touched by Francis Ouimet.  It sucks."

Richard the Quadruple Dunce:

If it was touched by Quimet it's probably safe to assume it was touched by Vardon or someone on the other side, so try it again as it will inevitable work wonderfully well for that very reason alone.  

By the way, do you know the Schnecdety putter is the only thing in golf that the Scots do not claim to have invented? On the other hand apparently the Scots claim to have originally settled Schnecdety, so if the Schnecdety putter ever makes a come back they are in a position to claim it too.

[Doug Wright]

"I've got a "Schenecdety" putter at home that was once touched by Francis Ouimet.  It sucks."

Richard the Quadruple Dunce:

If it was touched by Quimet it's probably safe to assume it was touched by Vardon or someone on the other side, so try it again as it will inevitable work wonderfully well for that very reason alone.  

By the way, do you know the Schnecdety putter is the only thing in golf that the Scots do not claim to have invented? On the other hand apparently the Scots claim to have originally settled Schnecdety, so if the Schnecdety putter ever makes a come back they are in a position to claim it too.

TE,

If you're going to pontificate about Schenectady and its putter please at least spell it right!   I'm pretty sure the Dutch (not the Scots...) settled Schenectady in the 1600s, no doubt moving aside the Mohawks. The name "Schenectady" is derived from a Mohawk Indian word for "on that side of the pinery," or "near the pines," or "place beyond the pine plains."

[Matt MacIver]

Gleneagles (Kings) threw me for a loop at the beginning.

This jumped to the front in my mind.  #1 - serious uphill 2nd shot.  #2 serious downhiller all the way to the green (can you drive it?  I don't THINK so....!)  #3 - blind landing area for drive, whack it over a hill to a blind green.