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Phil_the_Author

Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2007, 10:02:18 AM »
Tom,

As usual you use phrases as you see fit and as statements of fact whenthey aren't.

You have stated now several times that i have claimed to have been "misunderstood" by you in this thread. I haven't and have not even used the word in this thread. Go back and take a look.

You stated that, "Wit, sarcasm and such may not be completely ideal but what the hell, they sure aren't the end of the world either. Constantly suggesting that people should never use those tactics..."

Not only have I NOT "constantly suggested that people should NEVER use those tactics" I have NEVER made that staement or even implied it. To the contrary, I stated quite clearly that you took exception to my using a sarcastic phrase in DIRECT RESPONSE AND IMITATION of your OWN use of it, yet you viewed mine as seeming, "more like some refrain such as; "Oh My God, the things I say are always so misunderstood"."

Again, and quite clearly, I wrote, "Why is it when I write it, "It doesn't seem to be the ordinary give and take of discussion or even debate..." yet when you do it is the result of some rapier-like wit?"

I NEVER said sarcasm and wit should not be used. I did question your view on its application on your part.

As this has gotten a bit out of hand I will no longer post on this topic.

On the bright siade, maybe that will allow you to enjoy a proper "discussion" of the subject.  ;) ;)

TEPaul

Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2007, 10:10:03 AM »
JimK:

You know your point about longevity determining greatness is an interesting one.

Who really knows how Tiger's career will play out from here on. After all he's only 31 years old right now. That gives him a ton of time, as much or more than he's already had if he is anything like most golfers and their careers. How old was Nicklaus when he won his last major---46 right?

I hope I live long enough to see the end of Tiger Woods' career. I'd love to know how he may walk away from golf in the end.

Something seems to tell me he will do it in a way that may be as interesting and unusual as he is and his career is and has been.

With a guy who has the strength of mind and the total belief in himself he seems to have and has always had I can see him just ending it one day without much fanfare and that will be the end of it.

I can see them thanking him for it all when that day comes and as he walks away from it all that last time I can see him saying, as he always seems to at the end of interviews and such;

"You got it"

and that will be that

TEPaul

Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2007, 10:13:21 AM »
Thanks Phil, I think that would probably be a good idea.

TEPaul

Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2007, 10:17:33 AM »
"But in Tiger's case, it's not yet in the natural order of things for his wins to produce tears in the audience. I think it's in the natural order of things for the greatest golfer of all time, in the middle of his prime, to simply dominate completely; and there's probably not much 'drama' in that for some. But years from now, when Tiger's days of domination are over, and his powers are fading, and he hasn't won a major in a while, there just might be that last, great raging against the dying of the light, and it will then be in the natural order of things, and then we'll probably all cry."

Peter:

Wonderful statement. Prescient too. You're beginning to make me cry, you dog!  ;)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2007, 10:24:03 AM »
Tom,
I'm not saying longevity is the only criteria for greatness. Bobby Jones' set records in his shortish career, one of which will probably never be attained by anyone, and they established his place in history. JN set records in his long career, some of which will probably stand forever.

He may be the most talented and the most driven, he may have the best touch ever seen, he may eventually do more for the game than anyone else, but it's time that tells that tale, no?

Johnny Miller had a stretch where he was the 'best' for a time, Watson too. If Morris Williams didn't die in Korea he may have surpassed Hogan and Palmer and been the guy Nicklaus chased( you gotta have someone to chase if you want to be the best).  

Woods is establishing his place in history because of what he has accomplished to date and he may very well be the best player to have ever picked up a club. He is on a  record-busting pace, but I think it will be his longevity that earns him the moniker 'greatest golfer of all time'.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2007, 10:57:50 AM »
In that vein, I do not recall that Jack Nicklaus was ever competing against some total major number of someone who came before him as some think Tiger Woods is doing or must do.

Jack was very much in competition with Jones' total of 13 majors. It was something he talked about at the time, and something that was written about as well.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

TEPaul

Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2007, 11:03:49 AM »
Ken:

Thanks for that about Nicklaus and Jones's 13 majors.

I did not know that or I forgot it. I've always been interested in golf but I guess not quite so interested back then as I am now.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2007, 11:07:00 AM »
"But in Tiger's case, it's not yet in the natural order of things for his wins to produce tears in the audience."

He has single handily made golf what it is today.

The equipment
The Tours and the money
The young people playing the game
The way we look at golf as an "industry"
The TV contracts
The clothes

He has set records for winning margins in every major....in some cases totally obliterating the previous record...

Does not any of that make you cry...for joy...for what "use to be".....for what might come?
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

TEPaul

Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2007, 11:10:08 AM »
"He may be the most talented and the most driven, he may have the best touch ever seen, he may eventually do more for the game than anyone else, but it's time that tells that tale, no?"

JimK:

That's true but one needs to remember that "time" can be looked at and used in many ways. One does not really have to use the end of a golfer's career to consider what he has done at any point in time or certainly at a time reference which includes his entire career after it's finally over without question.

As I said earlier if Wood's was gone today suddenly his career time is and will be what it is today.

Because of that I don't see there is any reason not to consider what his career TO DATE means as far as his place in history regarding his greatness as a golfer compared to all others of any time past.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2007, 11:48:33 AM »
Tiger needs to win a major where he makes his audience cry instead of himself.

John - you probably know this, but that's what Frank Capra said about the realization he had that led to him making a string of terrific pictures. He said "I thought that drama was when the actors cried, but then I realized it was when the audience cried."

But in Tiger's case, it's not yet in the natural order of things for his wins to produce tears in the audience. I think it's in the natural order of things for the greatest golfer of all time, in the middle of his prime, to simply dominate completely; and there's probably not much 'drama' in that for some. But years from now, when Tiger's days of domination are over, and his powers are fading, and he hasn't won a major in a while, there just might be that last, great raging against the dying of the light, and it will then be in the natural order of things, and then we'll probably all cry.  

Peter

I did not know that about Capra, one reason I don't read is I get so proud of myself when I think I have an original thought and then it lets the air out of my balloon to find out it wasn't original at all.  I do hope that when Tiger does win in the twilight of his career it is not a Bonds momemt or his greatness will all be for nothing.

I was out of love with Nicklaus in 85 because I had just had my own son and Nicklaus always played too slow for me to enjoy watching.  The 86 Masters brought me back...Greatest moment in golf fandom for me.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 11:50:56 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2007, 11:59:37 AM »
Neither do I Tom, his career to date is unmatched and I have no doubt about his future potential. He will probably be looked upon as the greatest golfer of all time, as soon as he has notched his irons with the records he wants: Jack Nicklaus'

Official Tour Victories: 73
Second Place or Ties: 58
Third Place or Ties: 36
Total Victories Around the World:13
No. 1 in Lowest Scoring Average:8 times (1976-75-74-73-72-71-65-64); runner-up 6 times
Top Money-Winner:8 times (1976-75-73-72-71-67-65-64); runner-up 4 times
Career Official Tour Earnings:    $5,723,192
Most "Major Championship" Titles: 18 PGA Tour, 8 Senior PGA Tour, 2 Amateur
154 consecutive "Majors"
**"Major" finishes other than wins: 73 top 10, 56 top 5, 48 top 3 and 19 second place finishes in those events.
"Greatest Golfer/Athlete" Awards (9):    Sports Illustrated; GOLF Magazine; Associated Press; Golfweek; GolfWorld; PGATOUR.com and GolfWeb; ESPN; British Broadcasting Company; and Today's Golfer
"Golfer of the Century" Award (2): 1988 (GOLF Magazine); 1996 (Golf Monthly, U.K.)
PGA Player of the Year Award:    5 times (1976-75-73-72-67)
Athlete of the Decade Award:    1970s (Sports Illustrated)
Golf Course Architect of the Year:    1993 (Golf World)
Tour Playoff Record:    Won 12; Lost 10
Holes in One:    20
International and other Victories:    British Open (3): 1978-70-66 (runner-up 7 times)
Australian Open (6): 1978-76-75-71-68-64
World Series of Golf (5): 1976-70-67-63-62 (runner-up 6 times)
World Cup Invitational (3): 1963-64-71
Piccadilly World Cup Match Play (1): 1970
Dunlop International (1): 1971
Ryder Cup: Member of U.S. teams that defeated Britain in 1981-77-75-73-71 and tied Britain 1969 (non-playing captain of winning 1983 U.S. team and losing 1987 U.S. team)


** untouchable (my opinion)
 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 12:04:24 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Peter Pallotta

Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2007, 12:22:42 PM »
John K - Funny. But don't worry about the original thought bit: if you didn't know of Capra's remark, it means that your thought WAS original, at least to you...which is the best most of us can ever hope for.  And it was an interesting thought.

By the way, the 86 Masters brought me back too, and is one of the reasons I was a late convert to Tiger's 'greatest player of all time' camp.  Jim's listing of Jack's accomplishments above (thanks Jim) reminds me of how, for years, I used those stats as the 'standard' by which Tiger had to be judged. But I don't do that anymore. I've come to believe that Tiger is simply the 'better player', in every single area of the game one can use to determine that.

Peter

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2007, 12:24:43 PM »
Tom:

A little more than a year ago, I wondered if Tiger would really go down as the dominant golfer ever. His father had died, his latest swing change seemed not to be working, and he even seemed slightly over-motivated (trying too hard in his pursuit of Jack's record).

Now I don't think so. In his last six majors, since his ill-considered comeback at WFoot, he's gone win, win, runner-up, runner-up, average, win. And his wins -- three of the last six majors (a rate matched twice by Nicklaus during his entire career) -- were done in such a dominant way, that it's convinced me it's just a matter of time before he exceeds 18 majors. (I personally think he's gunning to match or exceed the all-time records in each of the four majors -- Jack's six green jackets, the four US Opens held by Jack, Hogan and Anderson, Vardon's six BO's, and Jack and Hagen's five PGAs. At 31, he's at or more than halfway there in each of the four majors). Tiger's play of late reminds me of Jack's early 1970s performance (71, 73 and 75 PGAs, plus his 72 wins at Augusta and Pebble) in which -- save for his comeback at Augusta -- he was clearly the dominant player in the field, and it seemed inevitable that he would win those majors.

He is clearly the most focused, motivated, and talented athlete of his generation; only Armstrong and Michael Phelps come remotely close. And, interestingly to me, he has become so in an era where:
-- lots of golfers are satisfied to make a career out of retaining their PGA tour card, because the money is so good;
-- lots of athletes (as Tiger has) can make more money off the playing fields than on it, and thus lose some focus on their playing career;
-- he's been under intense, 24-hour media scrutiny, particularly as an African-American golfer, of the kind that Jack never faced (Tiger's no Jackie Robinson or Henry Aaron, but he's faced far more scrutiny because of his race than any golfer that came before him).

There is much to admire about Tiger, and the manner in which he's gone about breaking one of the most difficult records in sport. It's a pretty stark contrast to the baseball player in San Francisco.


Jim Nugent

Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2007, 01:22:38 PM »
Jim Kennedy, I believe some of the numbers you attribute to Jack are a bit off.  By my count, other than wins he has 28 top 3 finishes in majors...37 top 5's, and 54 top 10's.  Still astonishing.  

Jesse Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2007, 02:16:21 PM »
I don't care about second place.
Care even less about Top Tens.
To me there is a difference between being the best player of all time vs. the game's greatest champion.

Tiger is the best player of all time.
Jack is golf's greatest champion.

For decades Jack was both.
Just like Jordan in basketball and boxing's Sugar Ray Robinson.
To me it's clear, Tiger is now the better player.

Let's face it. Records are about numbers. Can't run from that.
18's the number. When Tiger reaches it,  he'll be the game's greatest champion too.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 03:18:59 PM by Jesse Jones »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2007, 03:11:24 PM »

Let's face it. Records are about numbers. Can't run from that.
18's the number. When Tiger reaches it,  he'll be the game greatest champion too.



Jesse, et. al,

Let's assume that Bobby Jones would almost certainly have won a lot more majors had he not retired at the peak of his career.  At the rate he was winning, if he plays to his mid-40's, maybe he wins 25.

So when you consider Jack to be "the greatest champion" you are basing that in large part on longevity, which is another question entirely from not only the greatest golfer, but even the greatest champion.  It becomes simply the Golfer With The Most Championships Award, and Jack clearly wins that.  I'd submit that isn't the same thing necessarily as being the greatest champion; it IS very, very important, but it isn't the only or even the best measure of the greatest golfer.  

If instead you base it on winning %, for instance, then Woods becomes golf's greatest champion already.  He wins more often, and against deeper fields, and under far greater public and media scrutiny than anyone has ever approached before.  There simply has never been anything like it for sustained excellence, including Nicklaus.  This IS the greatest golf anyone has ever played, and it has been that way now for over a decade.  Nothing done in golf ever before, by anyone, remotely approaches what we have seen from Woods.  That's just the way it is.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 03:12:00 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jesse Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2007, 03:32:44 PM »
A.G,

I agree with you to a point.
I believe longevity does play a part in defining great champions.
However, I agree Tiger's play is just off the charts.
But time does tell us something about athletes.
It always reveals something new.
Winning while aging stirs fans both young and old.
It creates an unforgettable connection.
Let's be serious though.
Tiger will pass 18 in four years tops.
 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 03:49:58 PM by Jesse Jones »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2007, 03:45:43 PM »
Jesse,
I read (maybe here?) that over the next four years no less than 10 majors will be played on courses on which Tiger has already won a tournament?  In that event, there is every possibility that your estimate is correct.

In fact, I still believe that there is a fair chance he'll win the calendar year Slam at some point.  How about if his 19th were to be the PGA to complete a calendar year Slam?  Now THAT would be a moment.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2007, 04:06:43 PM »
Shivas,
Back to the old "peak value" vs. "longevity" thing.  I would still maintain that Sayers was THE best I ever saw.  The fact that he didn't last as long as others doesn't diminish what he could do.  Gimme him for a game over Brown, Sanders, Dorsett, anybody. How long he lasted says a LOT more about knees than football.

If Tiger gets the yips tomorrow (he won't, because his stroke is perfect; the yips come to guys who overcome something wrong and then can't anymore.  Like me...), it won't diminish for one second that nobody has ever played golf like this before.  I don't give a rat's ass how long it lasts beyond the decade that it has already gone.  There just hasn't ever been anything like it.

If you guys want to make it all about longevity instead of all about excellence and peak performance, suit yourselves.  Just don't confuse who is the GREATEST OF ALL-TIME with who was GREAT FOR THE LONGEST OF ALL-TIME.  They ain't the same!  WHEN Tiger passes Jack, it'll add the second title to his name.  The first one is already a dead issue.

Disclaimer: I'm 55 and grew up watching Jack.  I was at Augusta in '86, standing on the 16th tee.  He was amazing.  But it was NEVER like this.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jim Nugent

Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2007, 04:12:51 PM »
Shivas, what odds would you put on Tiger beating Jack's record in majors?  

John Kavanaugh

Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2007, 04:25:32 PM »
Shivas,

The only way Tiger fails is if he dies and then he is a lock for greatest of all time.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2007, 04:26:52 PM »
Jesse,
I read (maybe here?) that over the next four years no less than 10 majors will be played on courses on which Tiger has already won a tournament?  In that event, there is every possibility that your estimate is correct.

In fact, I still believe that there is a fair chance he'll win the calendar year Slam at some point.  How about if his 19th were to be the PGA to complete a calendar year Slam?  Now THAT would be a moment.

A.G.:

Well, start with Augusta, a course that's as well-suited to the strengths of his game as just about any course around.

The US Open in the next six years goes to: Torrey Pines (multiple wins); Bethpage Black (win); Pebble (win by 15 strokes, plus AT&T wins); Congressional (played in 97, not very well); Olympic (played in 98, not very well); Merion. I'd be truly surprised, if he's playing remotely at the level he is now, if he doesn't win two of the next three US Opens.

The British Open goes to: Birkdale (a very strong finish -- 3rd? -- in 98), Turnberry (no one has played it recently among top-tier players), and the Old Course in 2010 and presumably in 2015 (two wins; Tiger won't be 40 when he plays there in 2015). Presumably Lytham (he's done OK there), Troon and St. George's will be in the mix within the next five-seven years.

PGA: Oakland Hills next year (played decently, not great, there at Ryder Cup); Hazeltine (2nd to Beem); Whistling Straits in 2010 and 2015; Atlantic Athletic Club in 2011, Kiawah's Ocean Course the year after that, and Oak Hill in 2013. No wins, but save for Kiawah, he's played them all.

The schedule is one reason I think he'll get Jack's record.


Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2007, 04:39:05 PM »
Shivas:

A few observations:

-- Tiger's Haney-led swing change, many presume, was undertaken deliberately to prevent the kind of stress on his knees that his Harmon-oriented swing brought on.

-- Tiger when he first came on tour was a lousy sand player. Now he's one of the best; that doesn't come by accident.

-- Tiger has twice (twice!! -- once after he won the Masters by 12 shots, and another not long after he won the US Open by 15 strokes) undertaken fairly radical (for golf) swing changes.

I don't know of too many athletes, ever, who have the kind of confidence that Tiger has had, in the face of enormous success, to take apart and dismantle -- or just work at improving -- parts of his game to make them even better. And I've rarely seen an athlete make the kind of mid-game/mid-round adjustments he does (like Sunday at Southern Hills, where he butchered 14 and came back and striped 15 with a perfect drive/approach/birdie putt).

All of that shows me Tiger -- unlike someone such as Watson, who still had a wonderful game in the late 80s undone by extreme putting woes -- has a brain unlike anyone else in golf, or sports. He continually finds ways to make himself better, and sustain his excellence. He keeps doing it, again and again, after short lulls in his game.

Tiger strikes me as the rare kind of athlete -- similar to Jack, and really similar to Jordan in many ways -- who simply finds ways and shows a willingness to adjust to sustain his dominance.


A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2007, 04:52:47 PM »

Tiger strikes me as the rare kind of athlete -- similar to Jack, and really similar to Jordan in many ways -- who simply finds ways and shows a willingness to adjust to sustain his dominance.



Jordan may well be the best comparison; transformed himself from an average jump shooter but a great scorer into a great jump shooter to sustain his dominance when his leaping and quickness started to level off.  The similarity of the "refuse to lose" mentality is striking; the basketball coaches at UNC will tell you to this day that NOBODY ever worked at the game like Jordan.  That is Tiger.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger Woods in the sweep of golf's history
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2007, 05:16:17 PM »
Jim Nugent,
Those numbers might have been a bit misleading as they are lumped upon each other.

Major championship perfomances:
154 consecutive events

18- 1st place

plus:
19 - 2nd place ( never broken, my opinion)
9   - 3rd place
8   - 4th thru 5th place
17  - 6th thru 10 place

for a total of 53 ( never broken either, my opinion)

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon