Troon North gets facelift...

[Ryan Farrow]

I just played at San Marcos today, in the Chandler area and was quite impressed. Talk about firm and fast, and pretty damn strategic, definitely a thinking mans course, my only complaint was the greens couldn't have averaged more than 3,000 SF. Their website said it was the first grass course in Arizona, 1910's I believe

[Tony Petersen]

First and foremost... Farrow, you smokin crack again while playing San Marcos? 

Are we thinking about the same course? 457 par 4, followed by 461 par 5? It must have drastically improved since I played there 3 years ago... Seriously, I personally thought it was one of the worst courses I have played to date in AZ... yes, I have been fortunate to play alot of "great" AZ courses on a pretty regular basis... But flat, mundane & boring come to mind when one mentions San Marcos to me...

Golf Club of Scottsdale is a fun day on a perfectly manicured links... Good movement in the land, a couple of holes are somewhat forced, but all & all a GREAT addition to the high-end clubs in N. Scottsdale (Desert Mountain, Desert Forest, Mirabel, Troon, Estancia, Silverleaf, etc.) Bill McBride can add more. His nephew is the caddy master... And the HP has finished top club pro @ the PGA Champ. on more than one occasion i.e. he's a stick!

Now to over-rated & waaaaaay over-priced Troon North. First, it has made alot of $$$ and definitely earned a world-reputation by simply being one of the featured courses on the first couple versions of Tiger Woods Golf for Playstation... Sad, but soooo very true. Just ask. Bottom line is the contrasts look cool, whether in person or on Nintendo... And everyone wants to play a course they know from Tiger Woods 

Second, I would bet that more than 50% of the high-season rounds are corporate/business rounds. Thus, pretty much a write-off. Same goes for Greyhawk, though I find Greyhawk to be infinitely superior to Troon North... That's how they justify the outrageous fee... and the fact that Scottsdale has more 4 & 5 Star accomodations than any other city in the world... So, you have some ballers in town on a pretty regular basis 

I've played them before & since. The only thing that Troon North has, IMHO, is that they have the only public greens that are on par with the finer clubs in N. Scottsdale (with regards to speed and condition, not shaping, contour and fun factors)... In other words, the greens are usually pretty fast, pretty true and generally in great shape...

That's all I have to say about that for the moment. Truth be told, I'm kinda getting tired of target golf and am sooooooo looking forward to late-April in Monterey! 

[Ryan Farrow]

Awww come on, that is going to be my new stomping ground, well besides Papago. I'll give you flat, but for how flat it was I don't think it was that boring. But definitely a real challenge with the conditions. Plus the pine trees on that course were unreal. I really enjoyed it. I thought that stretch of 4's that should have been 5's and 5's which should have been 4's was quite hilarious. And do you remember how wide those fairways were. San Marcos baby, AZ's hidden gem.

But hey, Phoenix is not a golf friendly place for a college kid, I haven't gotten around too much. And I'm not that interested in contacting supers or club presidents to check out these "other" places, plus I just don't have the time.

[Matt_Ward]

Maybe others will be able to comment -- be curious to know if fairway widths have been altered at TN. No doubt it draws plenty of plays from the folks who can afford to play there.

[Forrest Richardson]

San Marcos is an odd layout. Historically, every owner since the 1960s have sold off land to pay the bills. What is left is about 100 acres — and it's not core golf! Our master plan is still viable, but it is taking a long while to get things rolling. I suspect we will update it before any funding gets approved. Lately we have been asked to relocate the maintenance facility. It is only Arizona's oldest course at its last location...some two miles away from the present course. However, San Marcos (in its current location) reigns as one of Arizona's five oldest as I recall.

[Tony Petersen]

I had no idea that you had a master plan in the works, Forrest? Don't get me wrong... the foundation is there for some fun golf... Christ, some of those trees are fricking pygmy Redwoods

I don't know... Maybe I need to make a re-re-re-revisit to San Marcos one of these daze... Mmmmm, paging Farrow 

However, I am standing firm on my attitude towards Troon North. Soooooo ridiculously over-priced... and nothing really special in the grand scheme of things (especially for N. Scottsdale).

[Ryan Farrow]

Forrest, thanks for the comments, if you can elaborate on the proposed work that would be fantastic .

And Tony, I'm sure you just haven't been there since you have "seen the light".................. that gets blasted in everyones face when they find GCA.com.

And for todays entertainment, Poston Butte.
I tried to convince my brother it was a bad idea but the island green sucked him in. Hey, he loved  the course but the drive out there and just seeing the development that is Anthem, made me want to vomit. Poston Butte is the epitome of everything that is wrong in modern golf architecture. The funny thing was, the course is ready to be lined with homes, they just aren't building them anymore. So I hit a few shots out of what will be someones backyard, someday.... someday.

And oooooo.... it hurt so much but I just had to bite my lip when the post round golf club washer attendants asked how "#17" treated us.

My 4-some of family members went: WATER, WATER, WATER, WATER. And after my uncle put his 40 yard drop shot in the sink he just quit.


Yes, the island green was on 17 and completely surrounded by homes. And Hell Yes! I have pictures if anyone wants to see.

[John Foley]

Ryan - What was specifically wrong w/ Poston - lets see the pics. I had heard that it was a pretty strong challange - not to say that alone makes the course worse something - but I was suprised by your comments as to how bad it was.

[Forrest Richardson]

The master plan (current plan) for San Marcos re-establishes a practice area and cleans up the odd assortment of parallel holes west of the current clubhouse. I suspect a new clubhouse will be built, too. And, it may well go east of the roadway that serves the current clubhouse.

Most of the design approach is throw-back in nature — accentuate the canals, deepen bunkers and enlarge greens wildly from their present tiny, little selves. We have looked through hundreds of old photos and have pulled some of the better, trying to embrace a style — but not anything that actually was there in terms of an exact hole. Why? Because they are all gone. What is left is the hand-picked (not) land leftover from apartment and condo development begun in the 1970s.

Tree removal is a big part of the work. I have not had the plan out in some time, but I recall being at par-70 or 71 and just at 6,500 yards.

One of the landscape themes is what we called "Historic Cactus Gardens" on the plan. These are to be expansive areas of opuntia (prickly pear) with saguaros and other flowering shrubs and cactus. The idea was to take areas out of turf (as possible), but to replace them with something other than drab decomposed granite as we see so many times here in Arizona. The "historic" reference is to 15-ft tall prickly pear cactus which used to grace the course in a few places. These were immortalized in old photos and they are quite charming.

This sub-discussion reminds me to check in with the owners...to see where we stand in these trying times. While the resort is busy, it is likely not the time to put several million dollars into the operation...at least I suspect this is the general feeling at this juncture.

[Mark Smolens]

As a long-time visitor to the Valley, I'm going to have to agree to disagree with those anti-TN commentators.  Yes, it's pricey, but not if you get the Troon Card -- which can pay for itself in one trip.  The rack rate there is no more egregious than at Greyhawk, Gold Canyon, Eagle Mountain, the other Fountain Hills course (name isn't coming to me) or even We-Ko-Pa Cholla (I  admit that I tell my friends to play Saguaro, even if they don't have the AZ resident ID card -- it's as good as it gets).

Was TN better when there was only the Monument and not lined by housing? Obviously.  But let's get real here folks.  It's not as if the townhomes and mansions come into play (cf. Biltmore's Links Course!).  If you don't like the desert, that's fine.  But if you do, TN -- both courses, though I haven't yet played the reconfigured Monument -- is a nice place to spend a day playing golf. . .

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
I think using GolfNow or some other means you can play Gold Canyon twice for the price of Troon North (and Dino Mtn is a better golf course IMO). I'd probably play SunRidge Canyon (the other Ftn Hills course I think you meant) over the New Pinnacle as well. I agree that Saguaro is now the place to play out there for those willing to spend the money. I do think the houses at Troon come into play or at least mess with one's head, I almost hit a couple of them with errant drives. There are some good holes to be sure, but I agree that TN has seen its better days.

[Ryan Farrow]

Ryan - What was specifically wrong w/ Poston - lets see the pics. I had heard that it was a pretty strong challange - not to say that alone makes the course worse something - but I was suprised by your comments as to how bad it was.

Geez, what do you want to know? I think the only reason the course may be a challenge is the because of the small green sizes. Other than that, its pretty easy. The only good thing about Poston Butte is the short grass around the greens.


Things I don't like:

-ZERO natural features and contours.
-FW bunkers at same distances on every hole.
-Almost no rewards for challenging bunkers.
-Flat greens with occasional shelfs.
-Monotonous
-Island Green
-Houses soon to border every single golf hole.
-1hr. and 10 minutes from southern Tempe


And here she is #17:

[Ryan Farrow]

The master plan (current plan) for San Marcos re-establishes a practice area and cleans up the odd assortment of parallel holes west of the current clubhouse. I suspect a new clubhouse will be built, too. And, it may well go east of the roadway that serves the current clubhouse.

Most of the design approach is throw-back in nature — accentuate the canals, deepen bunkers and enlarge greens wildly from their present tiny, little selves. We have looked through hundreds of old photos and have pulled some of the better, trying to embrace a style — but not anything that actually was there in terms of an exact hole. Why? Because they are all gone. What is left is the hand-picked (not) land leftover from apartment and condo development begun in the 1970s.

Tree removal is a big part of the work. I have not had the plan out in some time, but I recall being at par-70 or 71 and just at 6,500 yards.

One of the landscape themes is what we called "Historic Cactus Gardens" on the plan. These are to be expansive areas of opuntia (prickly pear) with saguaros and other flowering shrubs and cactus. The idea was to take areas out of turf (as possible), but to replace them with something other than drab decomposed granite as we see so many times here in Arizona. The "historic" reference is to 15-ft tall prickly pear cactus which used to grace the course in a few places. These were immortalized in old photos and they are quite charming.

This sub-discussion reminds me to check in with the owners...to see where we stand in these trying times. While the resort is busy, it is likely not the time to put several million dollars into the operation...at least I suspect this is the general feeling at this juncture.

Sounds like a plan, do you know the story behind that quirky shaping? Some of these areas look like retention basins that are kind of rounded off square boxes, more on the front 9 then the back, if I remember. I hope you plan on keeping some of those massive trees on site. I can't say I have ever seen that type of pine before, but they seem to be doing pretty well in the desert, how old are they and do you know what the hell they are?

[Forrest Richardson]

Dear Mr. Farrow-Obama:

The trees are Tamarisk (salt cedar) and are likely 60+ years in age. The retention basins were an in-house design idea of the 1980s — by a golf pro as I recall it. In the 1990s we added a few basins (but not the intricate, bumpy variety) for civil engineering reasons for yet another property sale at Hole 1 and 4.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The rack rates in season are $245 M-Th and $295 F-Su. The Troon Card is a good deal for locals and visitors who will play on Troon courses during their stay. If you don't want to buy the Troon Golf card, you can visit the website and will see discounted last minute rates: www.troonnorthgolf.com

My review of the TN courses will be forthcoming. I tend to agree with Mark Smolen's post above.

[Mark Smolens]

Andy, I checked golfnow and saw a $114 price for Dinosaur Mountain.  I can play TN for $140 Thurs-Sun with my Troon Twosome card.  From mid-town Scottsdale (Miller and Thomas) it will take me an hour to get to Gold Canyon and only 35 minutes up to TN.  Sorry, I've heard the hype about Dinosaur Mtn, and I just don't get it -- those who rave that it's the best public access course in the Valley (pre-Saguaro ravers, because if you think it's the best now, you either haven't been to We-Ko-Pa or you just don't get it) are just wrong imo.  In my two trips there, the greens were in fair condition the first time, and horrible the next (probably last).

My mother and I will be at Talking Stick North on Thursday am (for $85 with the Troon card).

Last month, while standing at the front desk at TN, I saw two older couples who were staying at the 4 Seasons checking in for golf.  It was about 55 degrees, and drizzling.  They needed two sets of rental clubs, and one poor guy agreed to put it all on his card.  When the receipt was handed to him for his signature, he about fainted.  "What's this number?" (something like $1350).  He probably would've been pissed knowing that I was paying $140 for my round. . .

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,

Just curious, how much does the Troon card cost? It sounds like its more beneficial if you're going to be down there awhile and play Troon courses regularly than for someone who may just want to play Troon North once on a trip and spend time playing other places?

I wouldn't pay $140 to play the New Pinnacle again personally. Maybe the New Monument is better.

[Tom Yost]

On the topic of Troon North -  I was lucky to play it once in the mid 90's for free (courtesy of a golfing boss and an out of town client ).  I guess this was the Monument course - it was long before the Pinnacle had opened and before most of the housing development.  It was one of my earlier upscale desert target style golf experinces and I found it quite enjoyable.  With the rugged desert features and boulders, I recall it as a very attractive. challenging and well conditioned course with nice greens.  I don't have any solid recollection of any particular holes other than the signature "Monument" hole.  It seemed to me to be something that would largely appeal to out-of-towners, especially given the price tag.  Would like to play the new routings, but no stinkin' way I'll pay the winter freight.  In fact, the summer rack rates have been typically the highest in town ($95) which has kept me away to this point.

As for San Marcos, this course holds a special spot in my heart as it was one of the courses in my "rota" when I first moved to town in the late 70's.  At the time a decent layout with nice greens, trees (holy cow!) and low rates,  but as Forrest mentioned, they've messed with it over the years to accomodate real estate developments on the perimeter.   In the mid-late 80's they decided they were going to compete in the "upscale" market which meant higher rates for a course with marginal maintenance and as a result, I stopped playing there.   I only recently have noted that they are once again offering reasonable green fees and I have been meaning to return and rediscover.

The big changes, I'm aware of took place in the 80's,  #1 rerouted to allow development, (possibly even several times...) I think it's a new green.  #9 was shortened and rerouted to accomodate the rerouting of #1,  the original green was abandoned (may have even been turned into the #1 tee) and the old #11 green became the #9 green (some awkward new area was added to the green to accomodate the shots coming from an angle 90 degrees from how the green was designed, but it didn't work too well as I recall).  The hole went from 625 yd par 5 to a mid length par 4 with these changes.  #11 was shortened with building of a new green, old green became the #9 green.  Other than that, the routing remains unchanged from what I can see in satellite views.  But I haven't been out there for 20 years. 

It's not much of architectural interest, but it is one of only a handful of courses in the Phoenix area older than 50 years.

Poston Butte - Haven't played.  Island green is not attracting me. I will get out there eventually but with so many other interesting courses I haven't yet played, it's not high on my list.



Tom

[Matt_Ward]

The interesting dimension about TN is how it catapaulted daily fee golf in the greater Scottsdale area ahead.

I don't mean to say the quality of the golf when it first entered the scene was ground breaking in any architectural sense but it did provide for a clean break away from the dull low level available golf options that dominated the local scene at that time.

The issue, from what I see happening now, is can TN re-position itself through the new alignment of holes as still being a first page priority when coming to the area to play. No doubt the level of competition in 2008 is good bit different than when it first arrived on the scene.

[Mark Smolens]

Andy,
Because my mother lives in Scottsdale, I fly out there once a month to get away from the wonderful weather we have in Chicago.  I think my renewal of the Troon Card cost me $575 this year.  I can only book 3 days in advance, but the savings are significant -- on all of the Troon courses.  It's certainly not for the one or two rounds at TN.

As for Poston Butte, Mr. Yost I'd have to agree with those who have advised to save the gasoline.  My opinion is probably jaded by my experience in a Golf Channel tournament last year, when it took 5.5 hours to play (4 groups on 17 tee!).  Drive another half hour and go to Globe to play Apache Stronghold over the trip to Poston. . .

[Tony Petersen]

Farrow...

I'm playing San Marcos on Sunday with a couple of buddies who have a PAT there day after St. Patties... Weather is calling for 50 and STRONG winds, so I will give you an update when everything is said & done... I'm kinda curious to see if any of the pygmy redwoods fall down during the round

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
I gotta admit I don't see that Troon card at $575 as much of a deal at all, but then again I'm not nearly so wild about Talking Stick as many on this site either so I wouldn't pay high dollar to play there either in addition to TN. If you liked those facilities then I can see how it would be beneficial. Granted, other than Papago there's nothing in Scottsdale that's a bargain in the winter unless you start getting into the special offers. Vista Verde if its still under $100 would be reasonable as well.

The area used to have some kind of Arizona card with like 50 courses on it. It was around $100 at the time and got some pretty significant discounts and could pay for itself within a week easily. The Troon courses weren't on it from what I remember but many of the other nice ones were (Estrella, Gold Canyon, Las Sendas, etc). Does anybody know if this still exists?

[Tom Yost]

... The area used to have some kind of Arizona card with like 50 courses on it. It was around $100 at the time and got some pretty significant discounts and could pay for itself within a week easily. The Troon courses weren't on it from what I remember but many of the other nice ones were (Estrella, Gold Canyon, Las Sendas, etc). Does anybody know if this still exists?

There is the SouthWest Section PGA Golf Pass.  $125 if purchased prior to Dec 31.   75 courses on the list with 50% weekday and 25% weekend discount from rack rate, but tee times only 1-3 days in advance, depending on the course.   Many courses were offering a free round with purchase of the pass, I ended up getting mine with a round at the Raven for $109.  It also includes a subscription to Golf Digest.  Doesn't appear that any of the Troon family are on this pass but some pretty good ones including  Apache Stronghold, Estrella, Gold Canyon, Las Sendas, Legend Trail, Raven @ Verrado, Sunridge Canyon,  Trilogy, Wigwam, Wildfire...


Tom

[Tony Petersen]

I ended up getting mine with a round at the Raven for $109.  It also includes a subscription to Golf Digest.

Talk about the deal of the century... They paid you 

[ward peyronnin]

i recently played the Monument. Thought the first was a little bit of a strange starting hole. Didn't get a good rythm with the blind approach shot and difficult green i liked ten a lot and the flow of holes was pretty good. did get tired of seeing ugly hpusing tho