[Rich Goodale]

 which if laid end to end will never reach a conclusion (apologies to whomever originally created that construct for some other satiric prupose).

Disturbingly, I'm with Rich on this one.

Take an aspirin and go to bed, Mark.  You'll get over it soon.

Rich

[Tom_Doak]

Sean L:

If you read the magazine, it clearly states that architects are not allowed to vote on their own courses.  I don't know if they extend the same rule to Herb Kohler or not ... we gave up many years ago attempting to weed out conflicts of interest with members of clubs from voting on their home courses, or people with other business interests voting for courses where they've taken pictures for example, figuring the panel was above that sort of homerism, and that we would only succeed in weeding out some and tilting the balance toward others.

Adam:  Some panelists have come and gone, so it's possible your impostor was a panelist until this time around (but I could tell you for sure).

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I Googled him:

Paddy O'Looney -- Director South West Ireland Golf, Ireland

[John Kavanaugh]

I Googled him:

Paddy O'Looney -- Director South West Ireland Golf, Ireland

I honestly with zero reservations like and respect every Golfweek or Digest rater I have ever met.  I will say though, I think the Golf Magazine panel looks like the best on paper because I respect so many of the people on the panel who I have not met.  It is the number one panel in golf.

note:  If I have met you and do not like or respect you for any reason but do not know you are a rater for either Golfweek or Digest please let me know in private so I can amend the above.

[SPDB]

I don't really care about the outcome of the list, but the online list is a great and interesting resource. As far as online lists/resources are concerned, Golf Mag's top 100 has top billing.

[JR Potts]

From the www.golf.com website

To keep it fair, course architects and course owners on the committee can't vote on their own properties. In the end, the opinions of our staff editors are factored in as well.

How much?

[Jim Colton]

From the www.golf.com website

To keep it fair, course architects and course owners on the committee can't vote on their own properties. In the end, the opinions of our staff editors are factored in as well.

How much?

Ryan,

  That was the exact thought I had when I first read that sentence.  Do the editors get their own vote?  Or are they fudging the panelist results to fit their own opinions (and how can that be reflected in the score that they published)?  I'm guessing that because they went with a new system for the first time, there was a certain amount of normalization against the old system or old rankings to keep things from fluctuating wildly.

[Tom Dunne]

One thing I find interesting is that based on the Average Score, which determines the ranking, Pine Valley and Cypress Point are 8-9 points higher than the next cluster of great courses--looking at the distribution of scores, that's something akin to an order of magnitude.

Are these two courses that much better than those ranked 3-10?  

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

Those numbers are calculated using Reverse Polish Anti-Logarithmic Interpretation, which expands the natural dispersion of results.  In reality, there is no significant statistical differentiation between #1 and #100, which is patently obvious if and when you play the two courses in question.

Rich

[Michael Dugger]

I am not thrilled with about 43 selections on the U.S. list.

Here are my 43 reasons why.  Someone please tell me which are not worthy selections....

Bayonne-Eric Bergstol
Pine Tree-Dick Wilson
Giants Ridge-Jeff Brauer
Wolf Creek Mesquitte-James Kidd
Pete Dye G.C.
Greywalls-Mike Devries
Bully Pulpit-Michael Hurdzan
Meadow Club-A. Mackenzie
Easthampton-Coore & Crenshaw
Lawsonia Links-Langford/Moreau
Paa-Ko Ridge--Ken Dye
Royal New Kent-Mike Strantz
Eastward Ho!-Herbert Fowler
Victoria National-Tom Fazio
Lost Dunes-Tom Doak
Plainfield-Donald Ross
Aronimink-Donald Ross
Barona Creek-Todd Eckenrode
Stone Eagle-Tom Doak
Hidden Creek-Coore & Crenshaw
Caledonia- Mike Strantz
We Ko Pa Saguaro-Coore & Crenshaw
Forest Highlands-Weiskopf/Morrish
Rustic Canyon--Gil Hanse
Forest Creek North- Tom Fazio
Kapalua Plantation-Coore and Crenshaw
Dallas Nat'l-Tom Fazio
Colorado GC-Coore & Crenshaw
Bulls Bay-Mike Strantz
Pronghorn-Tom Fazio
Arcadia Bluffs--William Henderson
Lakota Canyon-Jim Engh
Chambers Bay-RTJ II
French Creek--Gil Hanse
Wildhorse GC-Dan Proctor & Dave Axland
Black Mesa-Baxter Spahn
Dismal River-Jack Nicklaus
Monterey Peninsula CC-Mike Strantz
Erin Hills-Michael Hurdzan & Dana Fry
Boston GC--Gil Hanse
Tobacco Road--Mike Strantz
Suttons Bay-Graham Marsh
Kingsley Club-Mike Devries

Really?  How does Kingsley, Suttons Bay, for example, not make it...

I don't get it

[Tom_Doak]

MDugger:  My guess would be that at least 10-15 of the courses you listed haven't been visited by ten panelists.  (Sutton Bay was specifically mentioned in the end article as not having enough votes yet.)  That's the downside of this ranking ... the panelists don't have time to see them all.

It got worse this year because they insist on panelists having played the course before voting now.  So, even though I went to Bayonne and Giant's Ridge in the past year, I couldn't cast a vote on either one.

For what it's worth, though, I've seen 27 of the 43 courses you listed, and I only would have voted for four of them as being in the top 100 in America ... and I've only actually played one of those four.  

P.S.  If you've played more than half the courses you listed, maybe you should look into being a panelist.  On the other hand, if you think all of those you listed belong in the top 100, maybe not!  

[Andy Troeger]

Michael,
I tend to agree with your premise. I might not get to 43, but the list seems to be a bit overly swayed toward classic layouts in major metropolitan areas when compared to the other two lists. I would guess due to the small number of panelists and not being able to get to all the Sutton Bays and Kingsley Clubs of the world that are a bit remote from the coasts.  

Most of the courses I had thought of are on your list, with Wolf Run (Steve Smyers) being the most obvious exception.

[John Kavanaugh]

A long time ago Fazio said something about 200 top 100 courses and you guys poo poohed the guy.  These lists simply show that there are at least 200 top 100 courses in the country, maybe even 250, and that is a very good thing.

[Sean Leary]

I am not thrilled with about 43 selections on the U.S. list.

Here are my 43 reasons why.  Someone please tell me which are not worthy selections....

Bayonne-Eric Bergstol
Pine Tree-Dick Wilson
Giants Ridge-Jeff Brauer
Wolf Creek Mesquitte-James Kidd
Pete Dye G.C.
Greywalls-Mike Devries
Bully Pulpit-Michael Hurdzan
Meadow Club-A. Mackenzie
Easthampton-Coore & Crenshaw
Lawsonia Links-Langford/Moreau
Paa-Ko Ridge--Ken Dye
Royal New Kent-Mike Strantz
Eastward Ho!-Herbert Fowler
Victoria National-Tom Fazio
Lost Dunes-Tom Doak
Plainfield-Donald Ross
Aronimink-Donald Ross
Barona Creek-Todd Eckenrode
Stone Eagle-Tom Doak
Hidden Creek-Coore & Crenshaw
Caledonia- Mike Strantz
We Ko Pa Saguaro-Coore & Crenshaw
Forest Highlands-Weiskopf/Morrish
Rustic Canyon--Gil Hanse
Forest Creek North- Tom Fazio
Kapalua Plantation-Coore and Crenshaw
Dallas Nat'l-Tom Fazio
Colorado GC-Coore & Crenshaw
Bulls Bay-Mike Strantz
Pronghorn-Tom Fazio
Arcadia Bluffs--William Henderson
Lakota Canyon-Jim Engh
Chambers Bay-RTJ II
French Creek--Gil Hanse
Wildhorse GC-Dan Proctor & Dave Axland
Black Mesa-Baxter Spahn
Dismal River-Jack Nicklaus
Monterey Peninsula CC-Mike Strantz
Erin Hills-Michael Hurdzan & Dana Fry
Boston GC--Gil Hanse
Tobacco Road--Mike Strantz
Suttons Bay-Graham Marsh
Kingsley Club-Mike Devries

Really?  How does Kingsley, Suttons Bay, for example, not make it...

I don't get it

Sorry Michael but how many have you played any of these besides Chambers (which wasn't eligible yet)? How many that are actually on the Top 100 list ? I don't doubt as to any of them being worthy in themselves, but where did you come up with these 43? I know you are a great picture guy but to say you aren't happy about theses courses not being on the list when you haven't played almost all of them isn't right ...

[Michael Dugger]

Well that was fun....

There are times when I am thankful I do not work in the golf industry.  What a pain it must be to always be so politically correct.

This is the first time in a while where John K. really seems to be "on the rivet" so to speak.

Tom Doak......

So what are those 4 courses???  

I am just trying to stimulate conversation, people.  Someone comes up to me tomorrow and invites me to play at Bellerive, Butler Nat'l, Castle Pines, Canterbury, Southern Hills, Scioto, Briar's Creek or Trump National surely I'd rather play a round at any of the 43 alternatives I listed above.

Will someone tell me why not?

[Dan Kelly]

Dorothy Parker once told the graduating class at Yale if "you were laid end to end I wouldn't be the least surprised."

There's no Googling up a definitive answer -- but I've never heard it this way.

It's usually reported as being a dig at Vassar girls ("if all the Vassar girls were laid end-to-end, I wouldn't be at all surprised").

I've seen it reported as a dig at the girls attending the Yale Promenade dance.

But never as a dig at the Sons of Eli!

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

You can't throw 8 courses out of the top 100, and put 43 in their place.  And, not that many people would agree with you that (for example) Bayonne or Stone Eagle deserves to replace Southern Hills in the list.

As Sean asks, how many of the courses you listed have you actually played?  That's a great starting point for further discussion.  I'm already on the record.

[Michael Dugger]

Tom

Nevermind.  I was just curious what you thought.

I'll go back to lurking

[Richard Choi]

As Sean asks, how many of the courses you listed have you actually played?  That's a great starting point for further discussion.  I'm already on the record.

There is a great question...

Which is also the reason why I don't pay that much attention to these Top 100 lists as I (and I am sure majority of people on this board) will NEVER have the opportunity to play most of these (private) courses. And I don't like to drool about things that I can(will) never experience.

I have played 5 out 100 and 3 were because of my visits to Bandon Dunes (thank you, Tom for my only top 10 experience ). I suspect, I will never get beyond the single digit.

I am much more interested in talking about the Top 100 Courses That You Can Play. At least with those courses, I can plan my vacations around them (played about 25% of those courses).

[Mike Sweeney]

Tom

Nevermind.  I was just curious what you thought.

I'll go back to lurking

Michael,

Screw Doakey! I thought yours was a very good list. I have not played too many on your list either, but I have an opinion that I am interested to play almost all of them!

[John Kirk]

Michael,

While you are busy lurking, here's a couple of opinions:

I've played Plainfield, and that one probably belongs on the top 100 in the U.S. list.  Great, tough, old course.

I have not played Pronghorn - Fazio, but I've heard very good things about it, and also liked your pictorial post last year.  Looks like a great place.

Stone Eagle is really a wonderful place, and I hope that it eventually gets the credit I feel it deserves.  Beautiful and unique place to play golf.

JK

[Dan Kelly]

What is so magical about the number "100"?

[Michael Dugger]

Thanks for the encouragement guys.  

RE: Plainfield.  While fighting back sleep last night I threw that post up there.  I noticed this morning that Plainfield is indeed on the list so scratch that omission.

A few weeks back one of my golfing buddies asked me to compile a list of the 100 I would like to play in the U.S.  In a sense it was my top 100.  

57 of those courses were on Golf Mags top 100, 43 were not.  Last night I listed the 43 that were not.  

As I stated earlier, each of them appeal to me in a way that another round at The Country Club, Oak Hill, Medinah #3, Winged Foot East, Inverness, Scioto, Somerset Hills, East Lake, Trump International, Cherry Hills, Colonial, Olympia Fields, Double Eagle, Interlachen, for example, do not.

1. I get fired up about playing Bulls Bay.......Oak Hill sounds like a lame time.

2. I know Jack played his early golf at Scioto, but I'd much rather check out Vic. Nat'l.

3. After hearing Mucci rave about Pine Tree, I'd really like to know more.....

4. If C & C's Old Sandwich makes the list with a resounding #45 ranking, where is Easthampton?  Hidden Creek?  Kapalua Plantation?

5. I thought Yale was a dog track after Rulewich messed with it?  Didn't I read on Shackleford's website that Fazio's tinkering with Riviera is why it dropped with GD, but now it's back up with Golf Mag......

6. When is Mike Strantz going to get some respect?  Not one of his courses crack the list??  C'mon!

7. Is Doak and Nicklaus' course really 60+ spots behind Friars Head?  Now things are starting to look stupid.  

8. Forest Highlands.  You gave that an 8, I believe, Tom, in your book.  Is that one of the four which might deserve more merit???

9. Black Mesa?  Tom raved about the pictures of this course when Muzzo first posted 'em?  Is this not a top 100 layout???

10. French Creek and Boston GC. I gotta believe these are more interesting courses than Brier's Creek and Butler Nat'l.


 

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

I'm only going to ask the question one more time ... how many of your great 43 have you actually seen or played, and how many are you just rating on the basis of the hype??

Your question #4 is one of the keys.  If Old Sandwich is #45 (and I personally didn't think it should be that high), then East Hampton, Hidden Creek and Kapalua all rate below it.  I'd put Kapalua above it myself.  But the point is that there is only room for so many courses by any designer in the top 100, and Ross and Tillinghast and MacKenzie still deserve more spots than me or Bill Coore.

P.S.  I'm glad to see Plainfield was included on the list ... that was one of the four I voted for.

[Michael Dugger]

A.  None, Tom, but you knew that already...

B. FWIW, I don't really go for "hype."  My observations are based strictly on how imagery speaks to my golfing soul.

and based on this "method," tree lined icons like Southern Hills, Oak Hill and Medinah #3 put me in a sleeplike state known as a coma.

And I use to think you thought the same way!!!

So you think Sandwich is too high and Kapalua is better.  

That's the kind of stuff I like to hear from you, I only wish I could play all the courses you do.

But I can't....and blah blah blah, like anyone around here gives a damn about the why.

What are your thoughts, Tom, on Friars being 60+ spots higher than Sebonack?  

I mean Friars looks sweet, but they seem to be on the same level, with Sebo being a little more spectacular, if anything, not the opposite.



 

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