[Tom Huckaby]

Yes!  And it counts!

I thought you'd enjoy seeing that, John.

 

So now rankings/lists do matter, huh?
 

You must have me confused with somebody else.  I love the rankings, and think they matter.  I evaluate everything obsessively.  Your last post gets a 4.

Indeed I must - my apologies.

And guys, there's little talk about those moves and inclusions because very few people have seen the entire list yet!  Once they do, I expect those to be the major items discussed.

[Jim Nugent]

I actually like that top 20 list Tom Huckaby posted.

Look at that Pacific Dunes up there amongst all those great old warhorses.

You're on a roll Tom Doak.

If I count right, Tom has 4 courses in GM's top 100.  Bet in ten years he has ten.  

[G Jones]

I have been lucky enough to play most of the highly ranked courrses in the US and many in other countries. IN MY OPINION Pinehurst #2 is the most UNDER-rated course I know of. In my book it is a top 5 in the world. I don't expect anyone to agree if: They are concerned about price; if they are looking for bells and whistles; If they are interested in the "vistas", if they prefer new and different; if they don't appreciate the importance of tee shot placement and excellent iron play; if they think GIR is important; if they have never played the course; if they think Tobacco Road is better; or if they simply don't understand brilliant course design.

I prefer not to debate the subject with anyone who fits one or more of those categories.

Jim Lewis

The thing about pinehurst is that while it's brilliant design-wise, it doesn't lend itself to these top 100 lists. These lists aren't soley based on how clever the design is - they also take into account more immesurable things. Pinehurst therefore suffers, because to paraphrase ben hogan, pinehurst is a great course with great design... it's just a pity it has no standout memorable holes.

Now, while that's a matter of opinion (i can still remember every hole), it must be admitted that relatively it doesn't have the variety of styles of holes that courses like cypress that make it into the top 5 have. There are no 16th at cypress or 13th at augusta's at pinehurst from a signature hole point of view. And maybe it suffers in the ratings as a result.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike S:

Your inference is right.  There are a lot of courses in any ranking (not just GOLF's) where most of the votes are just holdovers from years past.  I don't know if that makes them "stale".  Twenty-five years ago when I started on this, it was not common at all for courses to rebuild their bunkers and their greens every few years like many do today.  The quality of design of a course was rarely perceived to change significantly in a short time.

The two ways to deal with it are just to accept it, or to increase the number of panelists considerably, and risk diluting the panel of voters with guys who aren't as qualified.

[John Kirk]

I am a bit surprised to see Friar's Head ranked so highly.  However, based on one great day at the Club, Friar's Head possesses an intangible synergy, where the total effect was greater than looking at individual holes.  The holes in the potato field (3, 4, 5, 6, 12, 13) are rather plain looking for such a highly ranked course.  They are all good golf holes, and the short par 5th is especially interesting.  But individually they are unspectacular.

Heading back and forth between the field and the dunes, the beautiful finish, the walkability, the variety, the whole look and feel of the place...  It defies the logic of hole-by-hole scrutiny.  It's just very nice, and it feels special being there.  Sometimes quantitative analysis fails in course evaluation.

[Alex_Wyatt]

John Kirk,

I would disagree a bit with your assertion about the holes on the flats at Friars and think you would come to a different conclusion after a few more rounds.

All of the greens in the dunes are raised up and require aerial approaches, with some of the smallest greens being found there. The holes out on the flats are a bit more strategic from tee to green and have large greens that are lower profile and accept a wider variety of approaches from the fairway and around the green. I actually prefer them quite a bit. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 11, 12, and 13 are all holes that would individually stack up very well on their own for me.

[bakerg]

I have to agree with John in regards to Friars' potato field holes.  They didn't do it for me either.  One or two of them were okay but the others just didn't seem to have much to them in my opinion.  

I think the course is fantastic but I think the dunes holes really care this place to that high of a ranking.  

[Joel_Stewart]

Why can't I find the list?  My issue has not shown up and I'm getting frustrated that its not posted on the golf.com web site.

Can anyone provide the link or post the list.

Thanks

[Cory Lewis]

according to golf.com's website, they will put up the lists on Monday.  It looks like we will have to wait until then to see it.

[bakerg]

Joel and co.  the W100 list is on the first page of this thread.  Huckaby listed the first twenty and I listed the last 80.  That is the 2007 W100 list.

Thanks.

[KBanks]

Is anyone familiar with Nine Bridges?

I've never heard of it.

Ken

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Is anyone familiar with Nine Bridges?

I've never heard of it.

Ken

It is on the Jeju Island in South Korea.  They have played host to the World Club Championship multiple times including this year's event won by Pine Valley.  The event was televised on the golf channel and I imagine that is the closest I will ever get to seeing this course on the other side of the world.

[KBanks]

Thanks Kyle. Is it new?

Ken

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Thanks Kyle. Is it new?

Ken

It did look quite new.  I would think in the past 5-10 years but I'm not sure.

edit:  It looks like it opened in 2001 and the LPGA has played an event there as well.

[Tom_Doak]

I picked up the magazine on the newsstand in Detroit airport on the way home last night.  It's hard even to read the article(s) about the ranking because there is so much advertising in the middle of it ... both lists are presented as double gatefolds, covered with ads.

Anyway, the additions to the top 100 in the U.S. are Nanea at 44, Old Sandwich 45, Ballyneal 46, Sebonack 76, Castle Pines 85, Jupiter Hills 93 (apparently Tom Fazio has done a bunch of work there, which I haven't heard anything about), Butler National 97, and Mayacama 98.

There is also a full page titled "Ten to Watch" at the back which is much like the old "Hidden Gems" list, except that they give these courses that missed a full paragraph write-up, which is more than they give 75 of the courses which DID make the list.  Odd.  Anyway, the ten anointed successors (listed in no discernible order) are Waterville (which was #101 in the world), Erin Hills, Sutton Bay, Bright's Creek, Canyata, The Alotian, Royal Porthcawl, Pinnacle Point in South Africa, Galloway National (which was #101 in the US), and Colorado Golf Club.  If past results are any guide, 3-5 of those courses will eventually graduate onto the list, and the others will fail to make the grade as subsequent panelists will prove to be less enthused about them.

[Tom_Doak]

PS  The inclusion of Nine Bridges is fairly controversial.  It has gained enormous attention from certain segments of the panel under the guise of the "World Club Championship" which Kyle mentioned.  I'd bet there's not another course in Korea that has managed to get ten panelists to come and see it.

[Dan Kelly]

In either case they appear to be undermining the very thing that they are trying to accomplish.

Are we still not allowed to use the phrase "to sell magazines"?

You used the phrase "the very thing that they are trying to accomplish"!

As we said when we were kids: Same diff!

[Phil_the_Author]

Dan, when I made the statement about the powers-that-be at GOLF magazine that, "they appear to be undermining the very thing that they are trying to accomplish..." I meant that they are obviously stating that they have ranked golf course and done it so well that the biennial lists they produce should be viewed as near gospel in the individual conclusions they arrived at.

So then, why would this same group of decision makers write and promote an article which, by it's very title and nature, call into question those rankings?

With everything that Tom Doak has said &/or written about his work at Bandon, wouldn't you question both his motivations and sanity if he now writes an article that says that Bandon is really overrated so much as that it is among the 10 MOST overrated courses in the world?

To me, IMHO, what GOLF did was stupid and poorly-thought  out...

[Dan Kelly]

I understood you.

[cary lichtenstein]

I am a bit surprised to see Friar's Head ranked so highly.  However, based on one great day at the Club, Friar's Head possesses an intangible synergy, where the total effect was greater than looking at individual holes.  The holes in the potato field (3, 4, 5, 6, 12, 13) are rather plain looking for such a highly ranked course.  They are all good golf holes, and the short par 5th is especially interesting.  But individually they are unspectacular.

Heading back and forth between the field and the dunes, the beautiful finish, the walkability, the variety, the whole look and feel of the place...  It defies the logic of hole-by-hole scrutiny.  It's just very nice, and it feels special being there.  Sometimes quantitative analysis fails in course evaluation.

John:

When I played Frairs Head the first time I was blown away, thought it was amazing, but when I reflected on it further, I thought the same as you, that the potato field holes were quit a let down.

When I went back a 2nd time, I really paid attention to those holes, there are really 10 of them, not the 6 or 7, I originally thought. They were somewhat reministant of other holes they have done on other courses.

When I compared Friars Head with Ballyneal, BN won by a wide margin.

That's my take on it.

 I still think FH is a wonderful course.

[Rich Goodale]

Before you say these lists sell magazines just look around and see how many guys on this site or you know buy them.  

John

As you well know, anybody who is anybody on this site is comped anything relevant to GCA.

Others

As for the ratings, they are fodder for (ultimately) meaningless conversations which if laid end to end will never reach a conclusion (apologies to whomever originally created that construct for some other satiric prupose).

As for Nine Bridges, were not serious comping malfunctions relating to that tournament forefront amongst the reasons that the Golf Magzine panel was cleansed last year?

Rich

[Mark Bourgeois]

 which if laid end to end will never reach a conclusion (apologies to whomever originally created that construct for some other satiric prupose).

I don't know either, but Dorothy Parker once told the graduating class at Yale if "you were laid end to end I wouldn't be the least surprised."

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that ratings tell us less about courses and more about raters, certainly beyond a small handful of courses.  Different people will have different preferences.

Disturbingly, I'm with Rich on this one.

Mark

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I noticed that the links were posted.

GOLF Magazine's Top 100 Courses in the World

GOLF Magazine's Top 100 Courses in the U.S.

[Sean Leary]

Interesting to see who is on the panel.  Pros, architects, photographers, golf course owners, and a number of people who participate here..I wonder if  owners and architects are allowed to rate their own courses.

[Richard Choi]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that ratings tell us less about courses and more about raters, certainly beyond a small handful of courses.  Different people will have different preferences.

The most astute observation I've read...

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