[Kalen Braley]

First off 200% agreed on Matts comments concerning the inmates running the asylum...

But.....

if you're going to be delayed anywhere, isn't it best to be delayed on the golf course?  Would you rather be stuck in your car during rush hour?  On the course you sit back take in the scenery and architecture.  If you've got somewhere to be, OK that can be annoying.  But if your just rushing so you can park your arse on the bar stool at the 19th hole then why get your panties in a wad for spending a few extra minutes on the golf course?

[John_Cullum]

That of course is total BS. I can play 18 on an empty course with a fellow 20+ handicapper and finish in under 2 hours. How fast can you and one of your low handicap buddies play 18?

EDIT: BTW that is walking and carrying.

Only if the object is to finish in under 2 hours. But if you want to play a round of golf, you're not gonna pull it off. fast play is one thing, but 2 guys walking and carrying in under 2 hours is up there with Matt Wards trip to Wisconsin, it's insanity

[Phil_the_Author]

I actually think that everyone has missed the point so far. Matt said that he wants to play 18 holes in 4 hours and that seems to be the general consensus or even less as the ideal to which players should meet.

I approach a round with two principles in mind regarding pace of play. First, i want to keep moving and not be held up by anyone. Second, I want to keep moving and not hold anyone else up.

If that is achieved then on some courses I'll be able to play in 3 hours while on others it will be 4 & 1/2. That is because each course is different and on different terrain.

Time of play is not what should be taught, but rather it is pace of play that is most important.

Running around an empty course in less than two hours seems rather silly to me; as if the goal was time rather than pleasure.

Enjoying a round of golf that might last two hours is a much different concept...

[George Pazin]

The point is not that people can or even should play in 2 hours, it's simply that John, as always, chooses to blame the lesser golfer for slow play.

JohnV and I played a course a few years ago that was not easy to play, nor easy to walk, and we did it comfortably in about 2 h 40 m. I don't recall what he shot, probably around 80, but I shot my normal 41-56=97 and I don't think I slowed him down at all. Given that my home course is both easier to play and an easier walk, I'd guess I could come in pretty darn close to 2 hours if I really wanted to (and if it were ever empty, which it never is, so the point is moot - the Sundays in fall thing was a joke, for those that missed the smiley).

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Some courses give a sleeve of balls or offer some incentive for the early starters to finish under 4 hours; otherwise, the course gets backed up for the entire day. 7 minute tee times are a big contributor as well. The major problem with slow play is lack of ownership concern after they take your green fee.

See Bill Yates Feature Interview. He's the expert:

www.golfclubatlas.com/FEATURE_INTERVIEW.html

[John Kavanaugh]

I have said it before but I think anyone who wants to sleep in and then come out on a weekend morning and play faster than 4 hours is being selfish.  There is nothing wrong with a group of guys playing a match where rules are followed and putts are holed.  I prefer to be held up than up held.  note:  I'm talking about 7000 yd courses with fast greens.

[Bill_Yates]

Shiv, Matt, Jim,
You guys are getting it!  Of the "Five Major Factors" that impact the pace of play: 1. Management Policies, 2. Player Behavior, 3. Player Ability, 4. Course Maintenance and Set-up, and 5. Course Design, Management Policies and Practices have the biggest impact.

While I wasn't directly asked about management policies and practices and their effect on the pace of play, this month's interview might give all posters some insights as to how Course Design not only impacts the pace of play, it actually determines how long each course "should take" to play.  Management Practices determine how long it actually "does take" to play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Bill,

Have you ever studied how much time a group loses by letting a faster group go through.  Let's say a foursome that tees off at 8:30 am that lets a twosome that teed of at 9:00 am.  I can't see it being any less than 10 minutes or the time it takes to play one hole.

[Garland Bayley]

I have said it before but I think anyone who wants to sleep in and then come out on a weekend morning and play faster than 4 hours is being selfish.  There is nothing wrong with a group of guys playing a match where rules are followed and putts are holed.  I prefer to be held up than up held.  note:  I'm talking about 7000 yd courses with fast greens.

John,

Has anyone on here said they want "to sleep in and then come out on a weekend morning and play faster than 4 hours"? No they haven't! So why do you bring it up.

The whole point is that on many public courses, which you are adamant about NOT playing, the pace of play is often 5 1/2 hours. The desire would be to get it to be around 4 hours if possible.

There are people that don't understand that they are the problem, or why they are the problem. I simply suggested a way for them to 1) realize they are the problem (they never get discounts) and 2) cause them to figure out why they are the problem (e.g. going through some silly putting ritual so they can miss by .00001 % less than they would have without the ritual), because they may want discounts.

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:  your problem was you filed neither copyright nor TM applications... but I'll testify should you decide to sue Titleist.  Your prior use goes back at least a year here.  In fact dig in the archives and we can likely find printed use....

 

Now as pertains slow play, Bill has been a good sport to discuss the unique situation at my home course before, but since he's here I think I'll try again.  Reading the interview, I can absolutely accept the five major factors as to why rounds take so long to play.

However, what can one do with management that is wholly uninterested in making any changes, at a course that's packed dawn to dusk nearly every day?  Pace of play is awful, but primarily due to lack of supply and huge demand, their teesheets remain full.  What's in it for them to make any changes?  Would they make more money if rounds took 4 hours (which I have to believe is the time this course SHOULD take to play - it's flat, not very long, doesn't have many hazards, and tee to green distances are minimal) as opposed to the 5.5 they actually DO take?

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Kinda like food stamps motivate people to stay married and get their kids a better life.  I don't see where handing out coupons to social misfits who can't get a game at a decent course is going to improve anyones life.

How much money are you talking about?  

[George Pazin]

John, the problem for us public course golfers is not 4 hour rounds, it's 5 1/2 hour rounds. Simply put, when you shoot for 4, you get a lot worse. If people were shooting for 3 and settling for 4, 4 1/4, I think most could live with that.

Watching someone stalk a putt like he's Jack on the back nine in '86 is beyond frustrating, it's flat out absurd. Watching someone do that repeatedly tests one's will.

[Rick Shefchik]

I don't understand the math or the physics of the "every 7 minutes"  complaint. A foursome can play a round of golf in 3 and a half hours on most course with little strain. The first group off the tee in the morning could average nearly 12 minutes per hole and still finish in around 3.5 hours.

So the first group tees off, hits their approach shots in about seven minutes, then the next group tees off. If the first group plays at a reasonable pace -- 12 minutes per hole -- there's no backup.

Allowing for lost balls, par threes and reachable par 5s, there will be holes where groups bunch up for a while, but as soon as these temporary bottlenecks are passed, the lead group speeds up again, the group behind them catches up, and we're back on a 3.5 hour pace.

No one has been able to explain to me why this pace can't be maintained. Blaming it on the tee sheet simply excuses the groups already on the course who aren't playing fast enough.

By this logic, everyone on all the Los Angeles freeways should have no problem driving 70mph.  If everyone went the same 70 mph, nobody would run into anyone and there would be space between cars.  The flaw of the logic is of course that inevitably drivers (and golfers) have to put on the brakes, and they have to do so more often if there are more drivers (or golfers) on the road.

You still haven't explained to my why, if the first group plays in (I'll be generous here) 4 hours, the groups behind them cannot also play in four hours as long as they make it their responsibility to catch up to the group in front of them whenever they have to put on the brakes.

If you're saying that just isn't going to happen, that's one thing; if you're saying that can't happen, I'm not buying it.

[John Kavanaugh]

George,

Why not go talk to an individual who is doing something so out of the ordinary that it is ruining everyones day.  I know this is common at private clubs and should work with a regular at a public just as well.

Every course where I play has a culture and cultures can be changed but not until the problem people are identified and exposed....and eventually expelled if the need occurs.

[Andy Troeger]

Cart-path only golf adds more time to a round than just about anything I know of.

[Garland Bayley]

Kinda like food stamps motivate people to stay married and get their kids a better life.  I don't see where handing out coupons to social misfits who can't get a game at a decent course is going to improve anyones life.

How much money are you talking about?  

John,

If you don't have anything nice to write, then don't write anything at all.

Signed,

YOUR MOTHER

[Jerry Kluger]

Pace of play is one reason why I shall not be playing Pebble Beach - I would be far too aggravated at myself for paying so much money to be tortured by slow play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Garland,

Seriously, how much money do you think it is going to take to get people to change and play faster?  That is as nice as I can ask.

[RE Blanks]

What I hate is that the conditioning quality of my home course is sacrificed for fast play.  We slow the greens down and cut the rough down so that the members can get around in 3.45 hours.  Anything more and you would think they were being puninshed while playing a game they think they love.

I would take an extra 20 minutes for "championship" type conditions everyday of the week.  Just my opinion.  

[John Kavanaugh]

What I hate is that the conditioning quality of my home course is sacrificed for fast play.  We slow the greens down and cut the rough down so that the members can get around in 3.45 hours.  Anything more and you would think they were being puninshed while playing a game they think they love.

I would take an extra 20 minutes for "championship" type conditions everyday of the week.  Just my opinion.  

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Garland Bayley]

What I hate is that the conditioning quality of my home course is sacrificed for fast play.  We slow the greens down and cut the rough down so that the members can get around in 3.45 hours.  Anything more and you would think they were being puninshed while playing a game they think they love.

I would take an extra 20 minutes for "championship" type conditions everyday of the week.  Just my opinion.  

If by "championship" type conditions, you mean US Open type rough, then you live in a fantasy world. Assuming no forecaddies, I could imagine each of you and your playing partners taking an extra 20 minutes. Now you are at 4:45, not 4:05.

[Garland Bayley]

What I hate is that the conditioning quality of my home course is sacrificed for fast play.  We slow the greens down and cut the rough down so that the members can get around in 3.45 hours.  Anything more and you would think they were being puninshed while playing a game they think they love.

I would take an extra 20 minutes for "championship" type conditions everyday of the week.  Just my opinion.  

I have to assume you think they only held a quaint invitational at ANGC before they started growing rough. Only after they began to grow rough did it be come a championship in your view.

[Cliff Hamm]

I play many different courses and am yet to see a marshall do anything to speed up play.  They do a great job of making sure the water coolers are filled and otherwise zip around the course on their carts and wave.  Had an experience this year where I needed to wait on the tee as two marshalls insisted on chatting.

Also I find the slowest players tend to be the better golfers.  They want to measure yardage to the inch....look over every putt from every angle...mark every putt as the pros do...etc...Slow play is the bane of public golf.

[CHrisB]

I would like to see an experiment done where, on the same course on 4 Sunday mornings with similar playing conditions and a tee sheet full of foursomes, players are required to:

Round 1: play stroke play and hole out at every hole
Round 2: play a Stableford (max double bogey)
Round 3: play a skins game (low handicap-adjusted score wins, pick up if you're out of it)
Round 4: play match play (two matches per foursome)

I'd like to see what the differences would be in the time it takes for everyone to get around.

Even on an easy course, I'll bet Round 1 would take at least an hour longer than Round 3 or 4

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

Seriously, how much money do you think it is going to take to get people to change and play faster?  That is as nice as I can ask.

Serously, perhaps you should first apologize to all my golf playing colleagues that earn highly respectable incomes, live in highly respectable homes and communities, but don't choose to fit your mode of elitist golfer.

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