Tiger to design in NC

[Doug Spets]

http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/article/0,28136,1650336,00.html

Tiger Woods is seeking his "lucky 13th" major win at this week's PGA Championship at Southern Hills Country Club in Tulsa, Okla., but two days after the tournament ends Woods will be announcing a first: his inaugural golf course design in the United States.

According to a source close to the situation who requested anonymity, the world's No. 1 player has signed a deal to design a course located just east of Asheville, N.C., for Cliffs Communities, a prominent golf real estate developer.

"It's pretty major," the source said. "Tiger will be intimately involved with the design."

Cliffs Communities has five high-end, master-planned residential properties in North and South Carolina. Jamie Prince, a spokesperson for the company, declined comment, saying that no official announcement would be made before a press conference with Woods scheduled for Aug. 14. An invitation to that event that was sent out on Monday highlighted a new development called The Cliffs at High Carolina.

Woods launched his design company in November 2006 and soon announced his first design project, a course named Al Ruwaya, in Dubai, U.A.E. It was reported at the time that he would be paid $25 million for his work, a sum that is roughly 10 times what even the most established golf course architects can command. That course is scheduled for completion in 2009.

Mark Steinberg, Woods's agent, did not immediately return a call for comment.

[Garland Bayley]

Tiger Design U.S. Course

[Clyde Johnston]

This should be the 8th course at a Cliffs Community.
Tom Jackson
Ben Wright
Two Tom Fazio layouts
Two Jack Nicklaus layouts
Gary Player (underway I think)
Then the Tiger.

Damn, real estate sales must be good!

[Mike_Young]

Gary Player is in the process of moving his offices to the Cliffs properties.....supposedly they are changing the marketing to be more of a "whole life" type of experience with golf you know like eating pine cones and carrot juice etc.....  I do know Jim anthony the owner is a really good guy and has done a good job.....BUT I would wager the design fee is much less than 25 mill.....

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played most the the Cliffs courses and am always amazed that there is that much interest and money in buying a home in amounts to the middle of nowhere.  Lake Keowee might as well be in North Dakota.  I played it one day and left at 8 PM and almost ran out of gas until I found a station that was open..It quite a success story.  

[Michael Whitaker]

Tommy - I'm not sure of your route out from the course you played, but there's not a Cliffs course that takes more than an hour to reach from the center of downtown Greenville, SC. Asheville, Hendersonville and Brevard, NC are even closer for most residents. Considering the travel times required to reach most courses in the bigger markets I don't think an hour will trouble too many of the individuals who are purchasing in the Cliffs Communities. One thing is for sure, though... you don't run down to the grocery on a whim. Every shopping trip has to be well planned.

Here is an overview map of the Cliffs properties:



By the way, to put things in perspective, "Greater Greenville" is the center of the 35th ranked TV market in the country as noted:

33   Milwaukee 880,390
34   Cincinnati 880,190
35   Greenville/Spartanburg/Ashevlle/Anderson 815,460
36   Salt Lake City 810,830
37   San Antonio 760,410

[Mike_Cirba]

Has anyone played a "Cliffs" course that they've liked?

I'm picturing mountain, cart-golf, with 70 foot drop shots and holes 1/2 mile apart from each other.

I'm picturing fairways built up and ledged into hillsides, with steep slopes on the highside and steep fall-offs on the low.  

I'm picturing a sleeve of balls gone by the 5th hole.

Are the views that good to spend one's retirement years playing that type of golf?

Or, am I way off base here?

[Bill_McBride]

Has anyone played a "Cliffs" course that they've liked?

I'm picturing mountain, cart-golf, with 70 foot drop shots and holes 1/2 mile apart from each other.

I'm picturing fairways built up and ledged into hillsides, with steep slopes on the highside and steep fall-offs on the low.  

I'm picturing a sleeve of balls gone by the 5th hole.

Are the views that good to spend one's retirement years playing that type of golf?

Or, am I way off base here?

Mike, I don't know anything about the Cliffs courses, but you have summed up Furry Creek in B.C. very nicely!  

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill,

There's a course in northwest Georgia I played recently that inspirationally spawned that post.

They also get green fees of $100+++

It's also in amazing, Augusta-like, pristine condition that is wondrous to behold, and the views of the course are sometimes jaw-droppingly beautiful.

It's just that the golf course is heavenly to look at, but hellish to attempt to play.

 

[Doug Siebert]

Mike,

Until the equipment got out of control, by the time a golfer retired he could count on hitting it so short he didn't have to worry too much about ball eating trees and hazards, so those places probably were a good place to retire to for a guy who retired in 1980.

At the rate things are going when I reach retirement age in 25 years or so, I'll probably still be hitting 300 yard drives, but with the nerves and reflexes of an old guy I'll be even more wild than I am today.  I better increase my retirement savings so I can afford all those golf balls I'll be needing.   Perhaps I should fund that retirement account with Titleist stock as a kind of hedge!

[Clyde Johnston]

Has anyone played a "Cliffs" course that they've liked?

I'm picturing mountain, cart-golf, with 70 foot drop shots and holes 1/2 mile apart from each other.

I'm picturing fairways built up and ledged into hillsides, with steep slopes on the highside and steep fall-offs on the low.  

I'm picturing a sleeve of balls gone by the 5th hole.

Are the views that good to spend one's retirement years playing that type of golf?

Or, am I way off base here?

Ben Wright's course (Valley Course) is not hilly at all, as it is down at the base of the mountains. It's the only one I've played there. I know Jackson's course is on top of one of the mountains since I competed against him for that job but I've not seen it. I recall some big movement in the land.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you can walk and carry your bag after you retire you need a job.  

[cary lichtenstein]

The developer has done a brilliant job at the Cliffs

[Keith Williams]

Mike,

You wouldn't happen to be speaking about Barnsley Gardens would you?  One of the more underwhelming courses I have encountered.

Keith

[Tim Copeland]

Has anyone played a "Cliffs" course that they've liked?

I'm picturing mountain, cart-golf, with 70 foot drop shots and holes 1/2 mile apart from each other.

I'm picturing fairways built up and ledged into hillsides, with steep slopes on the highside and steep fall-offs on the low.  

I'm picturing a sleeve of balls gone by the 5th hole.

Are the views that good to spend one's retirement years playing that type of golf?

Or, am I way off base here?

Well...all of the courses are below the Mason Dixon so how good can they be....right??

Clyde.....the Fazio course is under construction now....Player is next

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

You wouldn't happen to be speaking about Barnsley Gardens would you?  One of the more underwhelming courses I have encountered.

Keith

Keith,

Did my description sound like Jim Fazio's' Barnsley Gardens?

I'll never tell.

[jim_lewis]

Mike:

One of the things that I have noticed about so-called "mountain courses" in western NC is that most of them (or at least most of the ones I have played) are located in valleys near mountains. Some examples include Wade Hampton, Linville GC, Mount Mitchell, Bright's Creek and Diamond Creek.  As a result, they do not have severe elevation changes. An exception is Champion Hills.  The Cliffs at Walnut Cove (near Asheville) is a fine Nicklaus course and is not epecially hilly.

Jim

[Mike_Cirba]

Well...all of the courses are below the Mason Dixon so how good can they be....right??

Tim,

What do you mean??

I loved most of the golf courses I played during a recent family visit to Georgia.  

I just don't love golf courses built on such severe elevation changes that they require goofy, disjointed, fall-off-the-edge of the world, cartpaths for miles golf, including a new one I played two weeks back in Pennsylvania, north of the Mason-Dixon line.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Has anyone played a "Cliffs" course that they've liked?

I'm picturing mountain, cart-golf, with 70 foot drop shots and holes 1/2 mile apart from each other.

I'm picturing fairways built up and ledged into hillsides, with steep slopes on the highside and steep fall-offs on the low.  

I'm picturing a sleeve of balls gone by the 5th hole.

Are the views that good to spend one's retirement years playing that type of golf?

Or, am I way off base here?

You could be describing the original Cliffs at Glassy course for sure.  It is all about the views (and they are spectacular) but there are several holes that are underwhelming, if not down right quirky.

As someone mentioned the 2nd course The Cliffs Valley is the Ben Wright course in a mountian valley.  It is a good course, and not nearly the wow factor of the original, but just a good members course in a fairly nice setting.  This is the course that you see the final round of the BMW Charity Pro-am on the Nationwide Tour on the Golf Channel each year.

The 3rd course done was Tom Fazio's Cliffs at Keowee Vinyards down on Lake Keowee and has a little elevation change, but is more a "lakeside" course than it is a "mountian" course by anymeans.  It is a very good golf course, and has some spectacular holes as well.  This is one of the three course rotation for the BMW.

The 4th course done was Nicklaus's Cliffs at Walnut Cove near Asheville, NC.  I beleive this was originally routed by someone else, but when Jim Anthony bought a struggling development called Walnut Cove in its infancy, he brought Jack in and had him do his thing.  Lots of people around here rave about it, I think it OK, but not my favorite by any means.  I certainly prefer the Vineyards above.

The new Nicklaus Cliffs at Keowee Falls is open now, but I havent gotten up to play it yet.  Maybe in the next couple weeks.

I heard that the next Fazio one and the Player one are both under construction and may be opening in the next couple years.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

This area is absolutely exploding right now, there is the spectacular new Fazio called Mountiantop Club in Cashiers that just opened, and is fantastic.

Brights Creek has a brand new Fazio course right near here as well that is great, and plans are in some stage for a Palmer course there on a relatively flat plateau area on top of a mountian there.  I am told that the property is fairly flat and virtually treeless, and the thought is something linksy for that property.  They also have land for a potential third course someday.

There is a new Palmer course underway (I think) called White Oak Plantation in Tryon, NC which is very close to Brights Creek as well.

I think there is another Nicklaus course supposed to be going on within an hour or so in the NC mountians as well.

And I also heard that Mickelson is walking some property that someone is going to be doing in the next couple years just north of us as well.

And now if you add Tiger's Cliffs course to the mix.

It is unbelievable how much is happening within and hour and a half of Greenville/Asheville area right now.  I know it is one of the hottest retirement areas right now, but I cant believe it will sustain that many really high end clubs.

[David_Madison]

I agree about Mountaintop. If it doesn't get stuck in Wade Hampton's shadow, it might get recognized as the best course in the entire region and just an amazing overall experience to play. With them being only 15 minutes apart, there will lots of debate about which one is better (and I could play either forever with a big smile!)

[Jim Nugent]

I agree about Mountaintop. If it doesn't get stuck in Wade Hampton's shadow, it might get recognized as the best course in the entire region and just an amazing overall experience to play.

I haven't seen much information about Wade Hampton here.  Does anyone have pictures, analysis?  

[Andy Hughes]

Has anyone played a "Cliffs" course that they've liked?

Mike, actually, I have.  I was fortunate to spend 4 days down there last month and had a wonderful time.  We played Wright's course, Nicklaus' at Walnut Cove, Fazio's on Lake Keowee and Jackson's Glassy course.  

Wright's course certainly has the least 'wow' factor, but it is pretty solid.  You wouldn't make a special effort to get here but you would be glad you played it if in town.  Definitely not mountain golf.

The Nicklaus and Fazio courses are both enjoyable and well-maintained. They both had a number of good holes, and a few that left you suspecting that more could have been done. As Turboe said, the Fazio at Keowee is lakeside and in no way a mountain course.  The Nicklaus didn't feel like a full-blown mountain course either, though it certainly has the views and more of the up-and-down you'd expect at that elevation.

With respect to Turboe, I disagree with him regarding Jackson's Glassy. I had expected it to be my least favorite, but after three rounds I found myself enjoying it more and more.  It did not match the image MikeC posited.

Sure, there are a couple of holes that make you shake your head--not sure that could have been avoided with that parcel. Having said that, I like the 7th at Pocono Manor (for MikeC), and don't have much issue with those holes that make you shake your head or wonder.  The views are other-worldly in many places (and yes, I add mental points for that..it adds to the experience for me), and the greens added much more interest than any of the other Cliff's courses I saw---many holes had places where there was a big price to pay for being out of position, and a 2 (or 3) putt was far from a given from relatively short distances.

I am curious how the new Player course will turn out.

[Michael Whitaker]

Daryl - The Reserve at Keowee is going to add a second course by Palmer.

[Lester George]

I did the original routing for the Cliffs at Walnut Cove.  Rick Robbins and Payne Stewart followed me, the Jack got called when Jim Anthony took it over.  

Damn, I just missed another Cliffs Course, I don't know which hurts more, Jack or Tiger, oh well!!!

Lester George