[TEPaul]

Works OK for me! Maybe somebody tried to put something wide on this thread like a big photo that stretches things wider than our computer screens. Again, use the bottom arrows. Threads like this are a pain to read-you have to keep hitting either end of the space on either side of the bottom bar to read each line!

[ChipOat]

Tom Paul:

Thanks - this will be attempt #4.

SPDB and GeoffreyC:

Here's the deal on #8 at Rockaway - yet another Cape hole that does NOT have an angled "bite off what you can chew" tee shot!

First, the club's winter bulkheading effort should add about 10 yards to the hole by extending the tee box further into the canal to the SW (see your overhead).  The club wanted to add 20-30 yards but couldn't get the permit.

Second, most decent players use a 2 or 3 iron off the tee and are left with anywhere from 7 iron to PW, depending on the wind and how close to the water on the right they positioned their drive.  Some of the better players go with 3 wood but the bunkering does suggest that you can hit it "too far" although this additional complication is modest, at best.  Anyway, more 8 irons than SW's hit into that hole, in my experience.  The green isn't really driveable except by the real "monster hitters" - the former caddiemaster used to try and it's a real low percentage gambit.

My problem with the hole is that there is almost no advantage to trying to drive it close to the right hand water.  The distance is 1/2 - 1 club shorter if you do but the green sets up better from the center of the fairway.  The club really doesn't have the budget, nor feel the need, to re-angle the hole so as to offer a clear advantage to the riskier tee shot.  However, the extra 10 yards may make the left "bail out" drive a 5/6iron proposition on the approach - thus creating more incentive to hug the right side (near the bay) with something more than a 2-3 iron, no less.  If that is so, the 2nd shot will then be more across the water and SPDB will get his wish!

Interestingly, the major difficulty on the hole is the green.  There is a "spine"{ that runs up the first 3/4 of the putting surface that creates a ridge that is difficult to putt along OR across.  Most good players think #8 is the most difficult green on the course except for a couple of goofy 2 level situations on #'s 7 and 15.

Anyway, we'll see how the extra length effects the strategy off the tee and the angle of the approach.  Ask me again in May if I don't remember to send you a message.

Cheers,
CO

[TomSteenstrup]

The 14th at the Kampen course at Purdue University (Dye)

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/images/throssell.hole14.jpeg

The pic is so large, I'm only posting a link to it.

Cape?

Tom

[TEPaul]

That's not a true cape hole to me--not in the context of the original cape hole of NGLA's #14. That kind of true cape is an all water carry to the green and that would be taking that green in the photo and moving it about 50yds+ right (and obviously right out of the photo) and then leaving what you see there as fairway. That way it would be an all water carry directly at the green!

It looks like that hole at Purdue is a par 3 and most of the original true cape concepts were short par 4s with an optional tee to green carry that was obviously downright frightening and extremely high risk.

The cape hole that was designed but never built at Pine Valley (#14) was also a true cape like NGLA's original although NGLA's original green was later moved off the cape situation sitting out in the water when the road was changed.

[TomSteenstrup]

The 14th at Purdue is a par 4 - 387 from the way-back tees. The teeshot is played from the left of the water hazard to the fairway on the right. The more human tees are at 331 yards. I don't know if anybody would consider going for the green from there. The area left of the water hazard is OB, BTW.

The 13th has a green very similar, and that one is a par 3 - 177 yards.

Tom

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Uncle George,
Sorry for the delay in answering, This is the first time I have been on a computer in 4 or 5 days. In fact, I keep hitting the wrong keys!

I'm not a home at the moment so I could scan a picture of Macrihanish's 1st, but it's tee shot is demanding Cape-drive over the bay or inlet. Maybe Ran or Dan King could offer some insight. Being that it is a Old Tom original, and given the affinity for the man that C.B. had, one could only assume that this strategy was more or less from the famed 1st.

[Bill Perlee]

Tillie cited #7 at Shawnee as a well known example of a Cape hole, anyone know it?

[George Bahto]

Tommy N:  damn, Sparks - we thought you zapped with 440-volts or something

[GeoffreyC]

Chip

I've played Rockaway Hunt 4-5 times in the last year an a half or so and each time I've played #8 I've hit 3 wood off the tee. Luckily I've hit them well each time.

I'm not a long hitter yet I've never hit more then a knockdown pitching wedge to a back hole location and usually a sand wedge.  I've never had to play over the edge of the water.

Obviously you have played it numerous times and conditions may have been unusual each time I was there.  I've not yet had the pleasure of some of the really windy days I've heard about but I've played in a modest wee breeze. I can't ever see laying up with an iron on that hole knowing that my second would be a 7 iron when a 3 wood could leave a shorter club and a better angle.  Just my opinion.  I just got back from Tampa where I played with a bunch of Rockaway guys (really good players). I should have asked them how they played the hole.

Needless to say by posting this next time I will probably hit into the water off the tee and with the 3rd after a drop.  :-/

[ChipOat]

GeoffreyC:

You'd lay up with an iron every time if you had my quick hook with a 3 wood.

See my e-mail to you re: Tampa.

I'll be interested to see if the extra length on the hole brings the water into play on the 2nd shot - I hope so.

Chip Oat

[TEPaul]

I've been reading these posts about the Rockaway Hunting Club with interest! It's been too many years for me and I can't remember it well enough.

But I noticed Geoffrey's mention of no wind in his last few times there and I was also thinking about all that banter about prevailing wind conditions that got down to various little "micro-conditions" of shifting winds in parts of the world like Rich Goodales beloved Scotland!

So I was just wondering if Devereux Emmet was clever enough to forsee and design his holes to take into consideration the "micro-wind conditions" of the massive jet airplanes taking off from Kennedy International and how that might effect Geoffrey and Chip's wedges to #8?

If he didn't the Cat in the Hat just wasn't on the ball enough! How about Tillie, Maxwell, Silva and Cornish in their redesign efforts, did they manage to deal with this ongoing wind phenomenon design-wise? If not they weren't on the ball either!

[SPDB]

Chip - Thanks for the insight on RHC #8. It seems as if the bulkheading effort behind #7 will at least get them halfway to my wish. It certainly will help give the hole some much needed teeth. I know there are certain restraints placed on the club by the Canal and the bay, but this hole could really be something special, a sort of miniature Pebble #8 laid upon flat ground, sans cliffs.

Tom - indeed, Dev Emmet would have to have been quite prescient to know that there would be an airport, or that folks would travel commercially on airplanes.

Coincidentally, Idlewild Airport was built on the former home of Idlewild Golf Club, anybody know what kind of course this was?

[ChipOat]

Is Idlewild Golf Course referenced in "Missing Links"?  I don't remember.

The regular "Rockaway wind" is a 1-1 1/2 club blow from the SW although 2 clubs is not unheard of in the afternoon.  An East wind is the toughest as it usually brings bad weather.

The problem with the airplanes isn't any backdraft - it's the NOISE!  The only cool part of the location is that the normal landing pattern for the Concorde is right over the clubhouse about 9:00 every morning.  Otherwise, it can be a little like being at Lossiemouth.

The folks who really bear the airplane brunt are at Inwood, which is a wonderful course right next to JFK and right under the Concorde's take-off route.  To those of you who've never heard it, the Concorde is LOUD.

Which brings me to a legitimate thread for this site - Inwood.  I think it's the most under-rated course on Long Island and, maybe, the whole Met section.  It easily deserves the same press as Garden City Golf, IMO.  (Bob) Jones and (Bobby) Cruickshank both won majors there.  It's a first class layout.

Anybody out there know the course well?

[TEPaul]

Chip:

Don't know Inwood although I sure have seen it in passing enough!

The question is, can you birdie #8 Rockaway or shoot a good score at Inwood under Concorde micro-conditions? That's your mission for 2002, should you decide to accept it!

[Ran Morrissett]

The 1st at Machrihanish with its diagonal drive over the ocean/beach   is one of the very few tee shots as thrillling as the 5th at Mid Ocean.

Old Tom Morris built it in 1879 and Macdonald returned to the UK after it opened but there is no evidence that he ever traveled to the Mull of Kintyre - isn't that right, George?

According to George's definition, the 1st isn't a true Cape hole as the green is a good 25 plus yards inland off the beach/water. I am sure there were agronomic reasons for keeping it pushed back plus its current location is ideally situated in a slight hollow.

Maybe not a true Cape but the 1st at Machrihanish would surely have to be one of Old Tom's two or three greatest holes, and probably when you cut down to it, his best.

[TEPaul]

I apologize in advance to all you serious architecture addicts for wasting a post digressing from architecture but Chip Oat's mention of the extreme airplane noise amongst the communities and golf courses in the vicinity of Kennedy International airport reminded me of the ultimate airplane noise story!

Back when I used to live in LI (decades ago now) a South American airliner (Brazilian I believe) took off out of Kennedy, banked around and for some unnknown reason had its airspeed compromised. The pilot dove the plane to try to pick up airspeed, that didn't work, he dove it again and managed just enough airspeed to keep the plane airborn.

Unfortunately, at that point he was about 100ft over something like Lindenhurst (sp) and absolutely annihilated every single window, painting on the wall, and glass and chinaware in every single house in that not small community!

But he had sufficient airspeed so he blithely flew on down to Brazil. Now, of course, I haven't even mentioned about 200 trauma shock cases he had in the passenger compartment behind him! But in Brazil he landed smoothly and  subsequently he and the airline got hit by the biggest "non crash" community (Lindenhurst) and passenger class action lawsuit in aviation history! In other words that was low and loud!!

But the question is could Chip Oat have sunk his birdie putt in that particular "micro-wind condition"? I'm saying he could have but he would have had to combine a serious misread and a serioius mishit that cancelled out the misread to have it go in the cup!

[ed_getka]

Pulling this up for new viewers.

[Craig Disher]

Thanks for pulling this back. George Bahto's reference to #5 at Lido doesn't square with the course drawing in Missing Links. #5 is shown as a dogleg left coming back inland from the famous #4 lagoon hole and if I follow the discussion correctly, there doesn't seem to be a true cape at the Lido. #12 comes close to the recent redefinition of cape, playing over the lagoon but the green is nowhere near water.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul, et.al.,

The 12th at Morris County has not water, anywhere.

[George Bahto]

CDisher and all: The Cape green does not literally have to sit out into a body of water.

The body of water was often simulated by, like at Lido, a sand hazard. The second shot had to be played over a waste area to a green sitting out into the Lido waste-land.

A Cape green (in the context of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks) architecture could also be set on a plateau - a shelf of land - jutting out into mid air, so to speak. Banks cited this describing the second green at the (once great) Yale course as a "Cape-style" green - remember, he was there at the time with Raynor) and he knew what it was about first hand.

All this has evolved into the diagonal carry idea for many  people because they did not know about Macdonald moving his original cape green out of Bull's Head Bay inland to make room for the new access road to the National's clubhouse (sorry about repeating all this - again this is MY opinion based on what i have uncovered from Macdonald's original writings))

[Boreum_Hill]

This is a wonderful site - my thanks to R.S. Barker who directed me here, and to ed_getka for bringing this discussion back up.

George - curious about your mid-January post that researching NGLA led you to conclude the 18th at TPC Sawgrass is not a cape hole.  Would you clarify that for me?

Cape or not, I'm usually pretty beat up by the time I reach that tee, and am always disheartened at how difficult it is to pick my line of flight.  A wonderful hole and fascinating course, but I always feel mentally drained when that last putt falls.  

What then are the qualities of a cape hole, and secondly, a cape green?  Does the 14th at NGLA still fit both definitions?  For those who have played there, would you describe the tee shot and the 2nd in it's present configuration?  hehehee - OK, and if you have been blessed enough to have played it prior to 1920 AND you're posting here....by all means.

Thanks to all for opening my eyes that cape is NOT defined by the surrounding body of water.

[George Bahto]

Boreum_Hill

welcome, you will enjoy the site and don’t be afraid to ask questions - that’s what we are about -
learning

I’ll try to answer the questions: you asked: “George - curious about your mid-January post that researching NGLA
led you to conclude the 18th at TPC Sawgrass is not a cape hole.” ....... I think my explanation, twice on this
thread, about the cape strategy of CB and Raynor is clear - that contradicts the usual “diagonal carry risk/reward”
notion of a hole.  I originally thought a Cape hole referred to the diagonal risk off the tee-shot myself.

You also said: “Cape or not, I'm usually pretty beat up by the time I reach that tee (at TPC), and am always
disheartened at how difficult it is to pick my line of flight. A wonderful hole and fascinating course, but I always
feel mentally drained when that last putt falls.” ........... I think that 18 TPC Sawgrass is one of the great holes in
golf and is one of my favorites. Getting comfortable off the tee is difficult and the second is so demanding. My tee-
ball is usually over the mounding, near the cart path, through the fairway,  - from there you are dead. Forget the
second shot - it is exciting to play to the green from wherever you are. Great hole

you asked: “What then are the qualities of a cape hole, and secondly, a cape green?” ..... thought I answered that in
the first post and the most recent one. If not E-mail me and I’ll try again. ....

“Does the 14th at NGLA still fit both definitions?” was another question: Cape hole (Macdonald/Raynor - not
necessarily other architects’ definitions) is about the green not the drive. The drive just happens to be a severe
diagonal at National. The green now sits inboard not out into the bay as originally build - changed in the 1920s
(that’s why the confusion about the definition).

Your final statement: “Thanks to all for opening my eyes that cape is NOT defined by the surrounding body of
water.” - I can’t figure out what you mean here - it is never surrounded by water - that would be an island (are you
still at TPC? The 17th?)

Hope that helps a bit.

[Boreum_Hill]

Thanks for responding, George.  Sorry for asking you to repeat yourself, I just wanted you to confirm my interpretation - or was I just being lazy?    Reading through the posts again it seems clear, not sure why I was confused by anything.

My understanding: A cape green would be one that jutts out, such as the original 14th at NGLA into Bullshead Bay.  It isn't necessary for the shelf or plateau green to be bordered on 2 or 3 sides by water, as we see examples of cape holes with sandy waste (or other hazards) around the front and side of the green.  The 16th at Hazeltine, with water on 3 sides, is a good example of a Cape Hole.

Many people - myself included, until I saw this thread - think Cape hole refers to the risk/reward diagonal tee shot found at Hazeltine or the 18th at TPC Sawgrass.  But clearly the green at Ponte Vedre is not a Cape.  By the CBM/Raynor definition, it is the green and not the tee shot that defines a hole as being a cape.

OK, got it.  Thanks for your patience.  If it's OK, I may at some point take you up on the offer to correspond via e-mail.  I've been studyng MacDonald & Raynor for some time, and may have other questions regarding NGLA.  Of course, once I finally receive "The Evangelist of Golf" many of those questions may be answered.  

BTW - Did you find photos of the original Cape that are be included in the book?  I've never actually seen an image of the green, only text descriptions.

[George Bahto]

There is a drawing, original photo and another graphic of the original green at NGLA 14 in the book - thanks for the kind words. There is also a full description of the hole written by the boss-man, Maconald.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

It is funny in that I have always felt the best cape holes involve the drive cutting across the water and the risk that goes with how much you are willing to bite off ie Machrahanish and the green being set in the water surrounded on three sides. We have a fine short par 5(3) at Bayou DeSaird CC in Monroe la. The hole has the green set perfectly but really only has two sides surrounded by water. the risk shot is to hit it in two plays as if three sides  are surrounded because of trees.

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