Presidio GC (San Francisco)

[David_Tepper]

In case anyone was wondering just how tough the Presidio can play, the SF County Championship (hosted by amateurgolf.com over the past two days) might give some answers.

Randy Haag shot 74-71 to win the event in a playoff.  Granted, the field was not very big or very strong, as the event was played on Monday & Tuesday mornings. However, the low rounds were just one 70 and three 71's.

This is on a par-72 course with only one par-4 over 400 yards, all four par-5's VERY reachable and NO water hazards.

Hope this link to the tournament scores works:

www.amateurgolf.com/articleview.asp?id=2169  

[PThomas]

Presidio is also a course I should have mentioned in Jim Franklin's "biggest surprises" thread.......a pretty darn good golf course..a little shaggy around the edges but a lot of good golf holes out there for sure

[Glenn Spencer]

It got me for 83 big ones.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Would like to hear a round report from Matt Cohn.

[Matt_Cohn]

Yeah, so I'm pretty grumpy about the Presidio at the moment. If anybody sees my scores...it may have played hard, but it didn't play *that* hard.

Why the scores were high:

It was in the 50's or low 60's, foggy, and windy.

6,400 yards? Maybe. But in that air, and with soft fairways, it might as well be 7,000+ anywhere else. I actually backed up a driver on #16. Why they feel the need to water a course that's lush green and soft when it's 60 degrees and foggy is beyond me.

There's legitimate rough - four inches in some spots, and thick.

The greens were very inconsistent in both speed and firmness, and several were quite bumpy. If you don't know the speed, it's hard to make even a 4 footer if it has some break.

Trees. OK, I drove the ball like an idiot both days. Nonetheless, I clipped trees on 11 out of 36 holes, two of which resulted in lost balls. I hit trees on 40% of long holes. (Note to self: work on swing.) They're in play everywhere and, as we all know, they're not conducive to recovery shots.

The trees also block or encroach on ideal lines from many tees. By my count, on 11 holes today, I teed up all the way on one edge of the teebox specifically to avoid trees within 100 yards of the tee.

Does that seem like a lot to you?

It's an easy course from the fairways. It's getting into the fairways that's the problem. And if you miss, with rough, trees, and small greens you're probably going to miss the green. Then, with inconsistent greens and more rough to deal with, good luck getting it up and down. And that's how you make bogey on a bunch of 370 yard par-4's.

Questions are welcome.

[David_Tepper]

They played a US Am qualifier at the Presidio about 15 years ago, under similar weather conditions. As best as I can recall, the scores back then were very similar to the scores of the past two days.  

[Matt_Cohn]

And yes, Presidio could be unbelievably great, but it never will be as long as the Presidio Trust is in charge. But what the heck, here's a quick take on what they could do with a Harding Park or Lake Merced-style renovation.

All greens would be rebuilt in a consistent style and all bunkers reshaped. Too many of the bunkers are round; or flat; or shallow; or well removed from greens; and the greens are inconsistent in size, shaping, look, and of course conditioning. The typical old, worn-out course kind of thing. Also a lot of cart paths should be moved. So:

1. Driving range is unfortunate but hole is not so bad. Second shot could be better defined as there's no depth perception at the moment - bunkers are flat, green is not visible. Clearing out gunch on left would create more room away from range.

2. Recover old back tee 50 yards up hill. Remove approx. 50-80 trees around tee on both sides. Remove 30-50 new trees planted on right hill. Remove most trees right of upper fairway and green to allow for angled play to left pins.

3. Flatten the freaking tee. Remove trees on right side immediately in front of tee to open view to drop-off on the right.

4. Rebuild tees so that drop shot isn't blind. Clear 50 trees around green to facilitate sunlight and others near tee to create space. Rebuild mounds short of green so ball can't bounce up. Create interest in green as it's currently huge and flat particularly for a 140 yard hole.

5. Not bad. Clear a few trees on both sides but nothing major.

6. Clear 10 old and 5-10 new trees on right side of hole. Selectively clear trees on left side. Regrade fairway so that drives don't funnel to right rough. Make green more intimidating target for short wedge. Green could be moved back 20-30 yards.

7. Restore 240 tee left of current tee.

8. Clear 10-15 trees on left side improve turf and recovery possibilities. Reshape green to create more interesting pin positions near edges.

9. A mess. Clear trees and bushes between 7 and 9 and potentially combine into one large tee area. Clear maybe 100 trees on left side to allow for reasonable line on tee shot route. Completely realign fairway. Completely redesign boring, flat layup area and green.

10. Realign tees. Clear several trees on left side to allow left-to-right teeshot given strong left-to-right prevailing wind. Create interest in layup area and maybe redesign green.

11. Build new back tee close to 10th green and clear several trees on left side. Redesign green and surrounding bunkers.

12. Remove trees and stretch back tee as far as possible. Remove 20-30 trees on right side to create option of draw around fairway bunker to fit shape of fairway, or else redesign fairway. Moving snack shack would facilitate this and would also allow for a new back tee on #6 adding 50 yards. Remove newly planted trees on left side.

13. Raise tee, just a little, so that all players can see top of pin from anywhere on the tee.

14. Create fairway over left bunker. Not a bad hole but needs more interesting green.

15. Remove 5 trees right of hole, a bunch to the left, and all trees behind green except for two or three. Remove bush left of green.

16. Remove trees left of tree and trees on the right just off tee to open up view of hole. Remove newly planted trees in right rough except a couple to eventually replace current large tree. Establish fescue or else normal rough. New fairway cut around front bunker is silly.

17. Move tee left as much as possible. Remove as many trees right of fairway as possible, especially close to tee. Eliminate left fairway bunker to create more fairway straight out from tee, or at least move it further away from tee.

18. Restore 525 back tee. Eliminate as many trees as possible right of fairway to allow for draw with right-to-left wind. Clear junk left of fairway since so many balls end up there. Cut back or remove some trees overhanging left side of fairway. Redesign green to better utilize space and create interest.

Then cut down 1,000 more trees.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Thanks Matt...so, do you think they need to cut out some trees?  

The greens have had some bad nematode problems in the past...is this still the case?

[David_Tepper]

Kevin -

I played at the Presidio about 3 weeks ago. There are actually FAR fewer trees now than when I was a member there (1983-99), but they could easily stand to lose another 500-1,000 more.

The greens did not have any visible nematode issues last month. My guess is nematodes will be a chronic and recurring problem there until an environmentally acceptable pesticide is developed. The micro-climate of that area, combined with poa grass, is more or less a perfect place for nematodes to live and reproduce.

DT  

[Matt_Cohn]

Agreed that nematodes, for the moment, don't seem to be the problem.

Several of the greens have been completely returfed in the past two years or so.

Many other greens appear to have been overseeded with rye grass. Maybe rye is more resistant to nematodes than other grasses?

None of the greens had bare spots. But some were bent, some were rye, some were poa annua, and some were combinations of the above. I think I even saw some bermuda in one green, which would be pretty wild, by golf course agronomy standards anyway.

[Patrick Kiser]

Too many Mickey Mouse holes on this course.  Lots of forced holes into the landscape. Rarely a good decent stance.  Difficult to keep one's balance.  Way overpriced unless you get the internet specials.

My two cents.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Too many Mickey Mouse holes on this course.  Lots of forced holes into the landscape. Rarely a good decent stance.  Difficult to keep one's balance.  

 
Patrick, I played at PGC for 10+ years and I have no idea how anyone could conclude it's "Mickey Mouse."  Nor how anyone could say that holes that have been there since the early 20th century are "forced into the landscape."  They've been there forever for a reason.  The course I remember was interesting day in and day out, and the variety of shots required to play it well brings out the best in a golfer who gets to play it regularly.  Some of the issues Matt raises with the turf and the trees could certainly be managed better, but the Presidio's innate structure is superior.  

But "Rarely a good decent stance.  Difficult to keep one's balance."  This is golf course criticism??

Have you considered muni courses in Florida for your next golf outing?  

[Bill_McBride]

I always loved the way the short holes were uphill, in most cases pretty steeply, and the longer holes downhill.   That makes the course play a lot tougher than the card looks.  The greens are smallish, in the SF style, and yes, there are a lot of overhanging trees.  Do they still have the periscopes for the blind holes?

Back when the military and a Pacific Heights nabob private club shared the course, it was always a sight to see a foursome of privates followed by a foursome of well dressed private club guys followed by a foursome of senior officers.  What a place!

[Anthony Butler]

In case anyone was wondering just how tough the Presidio can play, the SF County Championship (hosted by amateurgolf.com over the past two days) might give some answers.

Randy Haag shot 74-71 to win the event in a playoff.  Granted, the field was not very big or very strong, as the event was played on Monday & Tuesday mornings. However, the low rounds were just one 70 and three 71's.

Not surprising. Randy Haag is a phenomenal putter on slowish greens... played in a couple of NCGA tournaments with him and he will beat you by 5-6 shots even when you hit the same amount of greens. For a guy who plays at Olympic, it's surprising he's never really transferred that ability onto the national amateur stage.

If they spent something like $10 million on the place it could be close to the quality of the Olympic Ocean course. That's probably not going to happen because no-one has any faith in the current management to keep it the right shape after that investment.

[Patrick Kiser]

To each his own I guess.  I'll take Harding any day over Presidio.  I play Presidio when I'm running short on time and can't make the hump out to Harding.

I say Mickey Mouse because for instance when I think of that par 3 with the tree basically blocking the green, in my opinion that hole was an afterthought.  No bailout either.  Just looks out of place to me.  Then the hole either before it or two back where basically the fairway is a bowl.  Always traps water in the winter.  Just poorly contrived in my opinion.

I'm of the opinion that if you make a good tee shot and reach the fairway in a decent position, you should not have to lean 30-40 degrees forward, backward, or sideways for your second shot.  I'm fine with an uneven lie or an undulating fairway, but when one has to more often than not lean like I'm suggesting ... well that's just not much fun to me.  Instead of attempting a shot, you're basically constantly doing damage control.

Lived and played in Florida and hated it.  Water doesn't belong on a course in my opinion.  No option for the recovery.

Too many Mickey Mouse holes on this course.  Lots of forced holes into the landscape. Rarely a good decent stance.  Difficult to keep one's balance.  

 
Patrick, I played at PGC for 10+ years and I have no idea how anyone could conclude it's "Mickey Mouse."  Nor how anyone could say that holes that have been there since the early 20th century are "forced into the landscape."  They've been there forever for a reason.  The course I remember was interesting day in and day out, and the variety of shots required to play it well brings out the best in a golfer who gets to play it regularly.  Some of the issues Matt raises with the turf and the trees could certainly be managed better, but the Presidio's innate structure is superior.  

But "Rarely a good decent stance.  Difficult to keep one's balance."  This is golf course criticism??

Have you considered muni courses in Florida for your next golf outing?  

[David_Tepper]

Anthony Butler -

I am pretty sure that Randy Haag got to either the quarter- or semi-finals of the Us Mid-Am one year, which I think is pretty impressive. As I am sure you know, "those guys are good" and the competition at that level is very, very tough.

DT

[David_Tepper]

Patrick Kiser -

As mentioned above, I was a PGC member for 16 years and have probably played close to 500 rounds of golf there. Hopefully, I can speak with some knowledge, if not authority, about the course.

I would agree with you that the tree on the par-3, #13 should be trimmed back and that the drainage in that bowl in front of the green on #12 (which has long been a problem) could/should be improved.

I do think #13 is a good, solid par-3. If the tree was a ridge or sand dune in Ireland, few would have a problem with a blind shot to the green. The green is plenty wide. If you land short, you have an option of hitting pitch shot or bumping your ball up the slope on to the green.

The reason I started this thread is that we regulary see threads on this board about how today's equipment hits the ball too far and older, shorter courses are being made obsolete.

The Presidio is a course that is 100-years old and has not had any material alterations in at least 50 or 60 years. By today's standards, it is a VERY short course, yet it still seems to play plenty tough.

One of the reasons it plays tough are the sloped fairways and the uneven lies/stances a golfer faces on almost every shot. That is one of the prime challenges of the course. You cannot make the same mindless, driving range swing on the majority of your shots, as the ball is either above or below your feet and you are hitting to an uphill or downhill target. You actually have to THINK about what you are doing and adjust accordingly.

Some golfers may or may not enjoy doing that. But clearly, from an architectural/design point of view, uneven lies and elevation changes (assuming the property has some) are one way a golf course can challenge golfers and compensate for lack of length.

DT




 

[Patrick Kiser]

Well ... we'll just have to agree to disagree then  

I guess I never felt a course was necessarily strategic or challenging thinking wise if I was swinging from rather severe and unusual lies / stances.  I just find that's a weak argument.  Just because a course doesn't have severe slopes doesn't mean you'll be swinging mindlessly.  I know I don't.  I'm thinking about position, the wind, the conditions and what I can do or not do.  Hopefully not about whether I can stand or not...

I'm not suggesting courses should be flat or not have undulation.  That's guaranteed boring and not as challenging.

I'm just saying I'd like to not fall over half the time...  There's a lot of that at the Presidio and on the back nine at Lincoln.  Really gets old in my opinion.  Tests physical ability more than golfing ability in my opinion.

Back to the course.

So the the #13 ...  What happens if your long or wide?  Very little chance of recovery.  I say long because I've more than a few times tried to cut one to the left for it to come in to the green and avoid the tree.  Well if you mishit that shot and go a little left wide or just plain long ... there's no recovery.  Better chance of picking fruit back there or something.

I see your point about the equipment and I agree that the Presidio will humble anyone with the latest, but is it really the equipment that's being humbled?  Not so sure.  Not being able to really use the equipment to full effect is more the reason.  Which is fine if that's what is desired.

I say throttle back the ball is the solution.  Would take care of a lot of problems for any course.

I'll still play the Presidio and maybe some day I'll feel better about it, but for now ... I just don't find it a very interesting course from an architectural or strategic standpoint.

[David_Tepper]

Patrick -

Sorry, but if you are out of play left or right of the #13 green, you have hit a pretty bad shot!  That green must be at least 60 ft. wide, with another 10-15 feet on either side.

The OB fence behind the green is a little close, but of the maybe 2,000 tee shoots I have seen hit on that hole, I don't think more than 5 or 10 gone OB long.

DT    

[Matt_Cohn]

On #13 at Presidio - what tree?

The one halfway to the green?

The tree on the right is probably closer than we'd all like, but realistically it shouldn't be in play.

There's plenty of room short, long and right. Only left is automatically toast.


But I will say that I don't find that playing second shots from sidehill slopes is a major factor in that course's difficulty as so many of those shots are wedges anyway. I'll stick by my contention that it's easy from the fairways.  

[Patrick Kiser]

...  Hmmm, not really with one of those after 3pm tailwinds.  I tend to go at it with a cut 7i (from the middle tees) and if I thin, push or pull it ... it's bye bye.

Patrick -

Sorry, but if you are out of play left or right of the #13 green, you have hit a pretty bad shot!  That green must be at least 60 ft. wide, with another 10-15 feet on either side.

The OB fence behind the green is a little close, but of the maybe 2,000 tee shoots I have seen hit on that hole, I don't think more than 5 or 10 gone OB long.

DT    

[John Mayhugh]

I always loved the way the short holes were uphill, in most cases pretty steeply, and the longer holes downhill.   That makes the course play a lot tougher than the card looks.  The greens are smallish, in the SF style, and yes, there are a lot of overhanging trees.  Do they still have the periscopes for the blind holes?

Back when the military and a Pacific Heights nabob private club shared the course, it was always a sight to see a foursome of privates followed by a foursome of well dressed private club guys followed by a foursome of senior officers.  What a place!

The only time I ever played Presidio was in the early 90s when it still belonged to the military.  I showed up there (not knowing access status) and got turned away because I didn't have a military or the right club affiliation.  When I started walking away from the counter, I got "adopted" by a group of enlisted guys and had a great time playing with them.  

I don't remember details about specific holes, but I really enjoyed the character of the course - hills, trees, & all.  This discussion makes me want to get back out there again.  

[David_Tepper]

Patrick K. -

Sorry, but #13 at the Presidio plays INTO the wind at least 7 or 8 months of the year. It might play downwind a few months over the winter, when the wind comes out of the east. The rest of the year, the wind comes out of the west, off the ocean.

If you are hitting 7-iron and land over the fence left or unplayable in the scrub right, you have hit a real bad shot! The landing area there is plenty wide for a 7-iron.

DT

[Patrick Kiser]

Yep.  That sounds about right.  I think the last time I played the Presidio was around January / February.  Damp, wet, slippery, winds from all directions, long uncut grass...

Come to think of it ... I'm surprised no one has compared the Presidio to another course in the area located just across the bridge in the Berkeley Hills / Albany direction.  Plays almost similar, except it's Gorillas in the Mist out there.  Nowhere as windy though.

Tilden Park.

Lovers of the Presidio will be thrilled with Tilden.

Give it a try sometime.

Patrick K. -

Sorry, but #13 at the Presidio plays INTO the wind at least 7 or 8 months of the year. It might play downwind a few months over the winter, when the wind comes out of the east. The rest of the year, the wind comes out of the west, off the ocean.

If you are hitting 7-iron and land over the fence left or unplayable in the scrub right, you have hit a real bad shot! The landing area there is plenty wide for a 7-iron.

DT

[Kalen Braley]

Yep.  That sounds about right.  I think the last time I played the Presidio was around January / February.  Damp, wet, slippery, winds from all directions, long uncut grass...

Come to think of it ... I'm surprised no one has compared the Presidio to another course in the area located just across the bridge in the Berkeley Hills / Albany direction.  Plays almost similar, except it's Gorillas in the Mist out there.  Nowhere as windy though.

Tilden Park.

Lovers of the Presidio will be thrilled with Tilden.

Give it a try sometime.

Patrick K. -

Sorry, but #13 at the Presidio plays INTO the wind at least 7 or 8 months of the year. It might play downwind a few months over the winter, when the wind comes out of the east. The rest of the year, the wind comes out of the west, off the ocean.

If you are hitting 7-iron and land over the fence left or unplayable in the scrub right, you have hit a real bad shot! The landing area there is plenty wide for a 7-iron.

DT

Umm...yes Tilden has drainage issues, no doubt.  I like the layout though and the location.  Its a great summer only course.