[Mike_Cirba]

Steve,

No, I'm not familiar with anything but the name of Pinetown, which I think I saw in the Hagley photo archives.

What do you know about the Meadowbrook golf course in Huntingdon Valley at Korman Apartments?   The old nine seems like George Fazio or Garrett Renn, circa 1964 to me, and they built a second nine around 1990 that I've never been able to get any definitive info regarding.  

[Rob_Waldron]

Dan

I did the Overlook Farm (Applecross) feasibility study for Pulte about 4 or 5 years ago. They are planning a mixed use community including active adult. ClubCorp is paying them for the golf course. At the time of my feasibility study Hershey's Mill was finishing its final phase and a new age restricted community with a golf course made good business sense. You have to remember nothing happens instantly.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike

I know nothing about Meadowbrook other than I played it on a whim about 15 years ago.

Do you know anything about a Rye Valley CC(NLE)near Philmont CC?

How about the NLE Rydal CC, a 9 hole?

[JMorgan]

.

[Mike_Cirba]

James,

I just replied to your email re: USGA sources.   Thanks for your help with that!

Steve,

I haven't heard of Rye Valley, but do recall seeing Rydal.   I don't know the history but having looked at much of the course (which if memory serves was about 4700 yards, par 67), the architecture was really very old.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Findlay courses in and around Philly/south NJ;

Blackwood (NJ) - renovated and modernized about a decade ago wiping out most of Findlay (now called Valleybrook)
Chester River (MD) - Front nine by Findlay is marvelous
Cohanzick (NJ) - pretty pristine
Galen Hall (PA) - original nine altered by Tillie and later the Gordons.
Green Pond (PA) - pretty pristine
John Byrne (PA) - former Holmesburg CC is about 65% still there.
Juniata (PA) - only 90% sure of attribution
Limekiln (PA) - Most of original 18.   Sadly, they have been replacing all the greens with larger, duller ones by Blaukovitch.
Llanerch (PA) - one of his best
Manor (PA) - very pristine.
Middletown (PA) - lots of changes over the years...probably only about 40% left.
Pennsauken (NJ) - former Iron Rock CC, lots of original work still there.
Pitman (NJ) - very original except for a handful of AultClark holes
Reading (PA) - wonderful and about 90% Findlay
Rock Manor (DE) - being completely revised right now by Lester George
Talamore at Oak Terrace - virtually nothing left but his cigar smoke.
Tavistock - really good Forse/Nagle restoration ongoing.  About 70% original.
Valley Forge - NLE as of two years ago.  
Walnut Lane - see course profile on this site.


Other Findlay's I've not yet played in the area;

Coatesville CC (PA)
Indian Hills CC (PA) (former Shamokin Valley CC)
Burlington County CC (PA)
Woodbury GC (PA)
Medford Lakes (NJ)

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Rock Manor in Wilmington can be seen from I95 and is scheduled to reopen in 2008. It will be managed by Billy Casper Golf. Is this the original Wilmington CC?


www.rockmanorgolf.com

[Mike_Cirba]

Rock Manor in Wilmington can be seen from I95 and is scheduled to reopen in 2008. It will be managed by Billy Casper Golf. Is this the original Wilmington CC?

Steve,

No, the original Wilmington CC was originally built in 1901 by members J. Ernest Smith and John Harrison, and then altered and expanded considerably by Wilfred Reid (Indianwood Old) in the teens.

Over the years it lost some land to the nearby school, Alfred Tull did some reconfiguring, and then Ed Ault revised a bit of it in the 70s.

Today, you can still play it as "Ed Porky Oliver GC".

[Kyle Harris]

I've played Meadowbrook and it's definitely a curiousity.

Trying to "find" and research Rydal CC was how I knew I was into this golf course thing a little too deep. I'll share that story in a bit, but it involves a lot of caffiene, a 2AM visit to the C-nine at Huntingdon Valley, a cellular internet connection, a lap top, Microsoft Streets and early morning AM radio.

Other courses I'd like to know more about are Montgomeryville CC (Pine Crest) and Warrington CC.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Kyle

As you know Ron Pritchard did the new PineCrest redesign of Montgomeryville so he would be the one with knowledge. I don't remember playing there. I do know the former pro there- Ted Hendricks. He ran the golf shop and driving range(NLE) near the Costco and was selling cars the last I heard.

Warrington(NLE)(Gordons?) was discussed here before.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

The site of Ron Prichard's PineCrest GC was originally a mostly open farmland track called Montgomeryville GC.

It was designed by Bob Hendricks (who also did Avalon) and Charles Schneider (who later did Neshaminy Valley and who had owned the soon to be defunct Malvern GC) in 1965 and was a pretty good course.   I got to play it once before it closed.

The only remnants that Prichard used were bits of today's 10th, 11th, and 12th holes down along the road, but even those were completely reshaped.

Warrington GC by the Gordon's unfortunately closed before I moved into the area, but that must have been some decent land for a course.


Sorry I missed your message last night..."Big Love" was calling.    Would love to hear your "Rydal...I'm WAY too into this golf course research thing".     I bet I can top it.  

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba said:

"I think one of the very surprising things I've been finding is that significant degrees of naturalism did not just appear in a few revolutionary courses, but were quite apparent and purposefully intentioned in some of the first courses in this country, including the original Merion.

There were a group of fellows who were all discussing and studying this very early on, although the most famous manifestations came a bit later, often in the second iterations of club courses as they moved further from the cities, which is probably why they seemed to suddenly appear on the landscape."

Mike:

I'd certainly like to see what you've been finding on some of the first examples of so-called "naturalism" in golf architecture in America whatever type of feature it revolved around.

I'm aware of early textual accounts when the word is mentioned but I'm not so sure the product was very convincing. It would probably be a good idea to break it down into particular kinds of features too. The bunker, for instance, is probably the best and most useful example.

For example, I feel that Herbert Leeds of Myopia and Devereaux Emmet of GCGC may've produced the first fairly natural looking bunkers in America but even those of that early time were quite different from say what Wilson/Flynn did at Merion East in the early teens. If you can find a course that had those dish-shaped bunkers earlier than Merion East did I'd like to see some examples.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Was doing a search for Burlington CC, where I was today with the GAP for the Four-Man Team tournament. 

This was a somewhat interesting thread from about five years ago, interesting to look back at what we talked about, where courses were at the time vs. now.  A lot has changed, and a lot has also stayed the same. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Horsham Valley is still open. Cutler still owns the land but is banking it until he decides to build more "active adult" housing.

Woodie's is now the site of the soon to open branch campus of Albert Einstein Medical Center/Hospital.

[Mark Smolens]

I wasn't around on this Board 5 years ago, but I grew up playing Woody's par-3 course. From second thru sixth grades we lived in Plymouth Meeting. My mom, or Robert Livesey's mom, would drop us off, and come back to get us in 4 or 5 hours. The old guy in the shack would turn a blind eye when we'd finish playing the ninth hole of the little par-3 course and then jump over to the 2nd tee. I don't remember what the greens fee was, but he'd let us play the course (in 8 hole increments) for hours. Man those Gene Littller clubs (Wilsons?) got a workout.

It was always a treat when my dad brought us over after work for a round under the lights. Great memories -- what a putter my dad was, I don't think I ever saw him miss a putt inside of 6' with that old bullseye of his. Missing playing with him but thinking of him when I'm on the course is a big reason why it's such a great game.

[Kris Shreiner]

Mark,

Nice story. My brother first found the game at Woody's, and his kids hit their first shots there as well. It's just hard for a property owner to turn down the big dough when the developers come ready to write a nice check to have them move along. The Woody's in the world of golf are the easiest marks and fall quickly in most cases. It's a shame, as your and my brother's accounts of what they deliver confirm a strong bond to finding golf in many of America's cities and towns. RIP Woody's, you brought a lot to the game in your day.

Cheers,
Kris

[mike_malone]

 I never played Cohanzick but love Centerton , particularly on a price /value basis.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

July 3 is the last date for public play Horsham Valley. It's 5 minutes from my house and has served the public well. At one time it did 40,000 rounds:

http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=11665&pid=20


http://horsham.patch.com/articles/golf-club-to-housing-in-3-phases

Cutler will develop the property in 3 phases. I guess the real estate market is ready now.

[Mark McKeever]

Possibly a bit of good news to add to a bleak thread,  Indian Creek GC in Emmaus PA was sold for development some time in 2009, but the project never got off the ground.  Word out on the street is that it's opening back up!  They have started mowing down the grass for the greens and fairways again.

Mark

[Ed Brzezowski]

What a shame, back in the high school days we played that alot. The guys who worked there were friendly to high school kids. Good Lord they are dropping like flies around Philly.

[Joe Bausch]

July 3 is the last date for public play Horsham Valley. It's 5 minutes from my house and has served the public well. At one time it did 40,000 rounds:

http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=11665&pid=20


http://horsham.patch.com/articles/golf-club-to-housing-in-3-phases

Cutler will develop the property in 3 phases. I guess the real estate market is ready now.

Can I have those three hours back Steve?!  It was good to see you and have a safe move to Arizona.

[Mark Johnson]

very sad for horsham -- one of the best values in the area.   when i lived in suburban philly i played there alot before i joined talamore.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Joe,
Re: Your 3 hour visit to HV


As Joe Logan pointed out in his review:

Just as Cheers was a neighborhood tavern, Horsham Valley Golf Club in Ambler is a neighborhood golf course.

Short at only 5,115 yards from the back tees, Horsham Valley will never be mistaken for a championship layout -- not with seven par 3s, a slope of only 102, and a par of 66.

But so what?

On any given day, Horsham Valley is brimming with as many happy golfers as any swanky country club in the area. For plenty of golfers, Horsham Valley fits like a comfy old shoe.


Some holes there are less than memorable and most are not even memorable(except for maybe the par3 sixth) but HV has served the beginners,seniors, high school golf teams,etc well for many years. Their regulars will migrate to other local  less expensive courses- Fairways, Twining Valley and Neshaminy Valley. Limekiln and 5 Ponds are probably a bit more expensive for most of the HV regulars.
 

[Joe Bausch]

A virtual tour of Horsham Valley is now available here:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/horshamvalley/

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Joe

Thanks for posting. As I mentioned before the 6th hole,

is of interest with its severe back to front sloping green that limits pin placements and the illusion bunkers about 30y short of the green,

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