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mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Five par threes
« on: August 22, 2002, 08:46:08 PM »
In my view,while I didn't care if a course had two,three,or four par fives,four par threes was sacred.This topic was briefly mentioned a few weeks ago and I started thinking about it in the context of my favorite courses.Old Course-2 par 3's;Kapalua Plantation,Carnoustie-3 par 3's;Bel-Air 5 par 3's.Although not on my favorites list Dallas Country Club and Cedar Crest in Dallas have 5 par 3's.Other than Cedar Crest,what other majors have been played on 5 par 3 courses.I guess you can count the 76 Amateur at Bel-Air.Does it bother you if course has five?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2002, 09:04:24 PM »
Both Pasatiempo and Pacific Dunes have 5 par 3's. I can't think of two more fun places to play golf. Rigidity in hole type and placement in the course of the round seems to stifle creativity, IMHO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2002, 09:08:44 PM »

I have no problem with it, in fact I played 3 courses in the last week that have 5 par 3's.  They are Pasatiempo, MPCC Shore and Pacific Grove. Pacific Dunes also has 5 par 3's.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re: Five par threes
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2002, 12:55:58 AM »
Banff Springs comes to mind.

BCD
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

allysmith

Re: Five par threes
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2002, 01:06:23 AM »
Mike,

My own home course Stonehaven G.C. has 7 par threes all little beauties (or bitches).

I think it is important that a courses holes are a golfing challenge and offer a variation in shot making rather than length.

It is therefore, in my opinion, more important to have quality than length.

any thoughts
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2002, 03:37:47 AM »
Mike:

Beverly CC, my home course, has 5 par three's and the course is a par 71.

The genius of Ross is evident here as well as all par 3's play
in essentially different directions, and the lengths vary (from the white tees) from 125 to 217.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Bob_Farrell

Re: Five par threes
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2002, 04:53:40 AM »
Mikie:

We haven't hosted any majors, but at Spring Brook CC in Morristown NJ, we have 5 par 3's, and three of them are consecutive. We believe we are the only par 70 or above course in the country that does so.

It's extremely interesting since the holes are #s 9, 10, & 11. If you want to see front nine Nassau's settled quickly, and the back nine bets off to a fast start, play these holes.

#9 is 173 from the White (199 Blue), 155 of it over water. #10 is 166 (179 Blue) back across the same pond, again 155 of it over the water. And #11 is 193 (213 Blue) diagonally across the water again. Many matches are sealed here.

If that's not enough, #2 is 192 (221 Blue), and #14 176 (204 Blue), 160 over another pond. Suffice it to say that we put our threes up against anyone.

BF
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2002, 06:14:04 AM »
Trillium (Morris Hatalsky) in Cashiers, NC, has 5 par 3's, two are back to back (nos. 15 and 16.).

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2002, 06:15:05 AM »
My home course - Plum Hollow - has five par three's.  The first four are heroic 1-shoters measuring between 185 - 225.  The fifth is a 142-yard postage stamp.  

We hosted the '43 Ryder Cup and the '47 PGA Championship.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2002, 06:26:13 AM »
My two favorite inland courses in the U.K. - Swinley Forest and The Addington - are both blessed with five one shotters. Such a feature helps promote playing 36 holes in five hours.
Thus, as you will note in The Carthage Club write-up, there are 5 one shotters as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2002, 06:31:27 AM »
Ravisloe in Homewood Il and Idlewild in Flossmoor IL both have 5 par 3s.  Both prominent early 20th century designs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JoeAndriole

Re: Five par threes
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2002, 07:35:51 AM »
St. Louis CC has 5 par 3's, thay are all quite good, the highlight of the course and collevtively represent one of the best set of short holes I've experienced
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JoeAndriole

Re: Five par threes
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2002, 07:50:48 AM »
St. Louis CC has 5 par 3's, thay are all quite good, the highlight of the course and collevtively represent one of the best set of short holes I've experienced
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2002, 08:14:00 AM »
Fazio is quite fond of using 5 par 3s. I have seen it work quite well at Galloway and Hartefeld.

Interestingly, there are five one-shotters at Stonewall - and I wonder who is responsible for that, Fazio, who did the orig. routing (most of which was kept), or Doak/Hanse
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Laun (Guest)

Re: Five par threes
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2002, 09:43:18 AM »
Ran - Addington has six par 3s, although the third can sometimes feel like a par 4!

The place is an interesting example - including a higher number of par 3s makes gives room (on a fairly tight acreage) for all of the long par 4s and two par 5s (~560yds and ~515yds). The effect is a course that measures only about 6300yds yet seems to play at over 7000yds as there is a good number of long shots - great for those who like their golf on the hard side and want to get round in around 3hrs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: Five par threes
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2002, 02:09:45 PM »
SPDB:  For the record, Tom Fazio's routing of Stonewall also had five par-3's, although one of them was different:  he had a par-3 from the top of the hill behind the third green down toward the fourth tee (which would have made the course return to the clubhouse at the ninth hole, not the eighth).  The one I added is the current ninth hole, which was to be played backwards for the second shot to the 18th in Mr. Fazio's plan.

Coincidentally, the new course at Stonewall we're currently working on also has five par-3's and three par-5's.

I have never shied away from routing a course with five par-3 holes if I think that makes the rest work better.  I don't think I would do it in an ideal world, with all the ground in the world to choose from; in fact, I might only build three.  But an extra par-3 does generally make a course tougher in relation to par, and there are lots of good precedents, including many of Flynn's courses around Philadelphia.  George Thomas was also a fan of the idea, according to his book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2002, 06:27:01 PM »
Since so many of the courses in the British Isles have par of 68, 69 or 70, seeing 5 or 6 par-3s on a course over there is no big deal. Golspe GC (just north of Dornoch) has 5 very good par-3s, one par-5 & plays to a par 68. If I recall correctly, one of the courses (the Red, I think) at the Berkshire outside of London has 6 par-3s. The Claremont GC in Oakland, CA (a MacKenzie design) has 6 par-3s, 2 par-5s and plays to a par 68. I have no problem with that at all. If that is what the land dictates, so be it!    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

WPM

Re: Five par threes
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2002, 07:31:11 PM »
Golden Valley CC in Minneapolis has 5 par threes and 6 par fives.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2002, 10:17:11 PM »
Mulvy's right, although I don't consider the 1988 U.S. Girls to be a Major.  Brandie Burton shot 68 that week, although I can't remember if she went on to win.

Tim Herron won the State Amateur at Golden Valley in 1992.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2002, 01:56:26 PM »
The genius of Donald Ross at work-

Charles River, CC has 5 par threes, each different, each unique and each very challenging.  From the 151 yard 4th over water to the 239 yd 11th.  The other three are 176yds, 189 yds and 186 yds from the middle of the tees.

I have no problem with the concept.

We have hosted many State Am's and New England Am's along with the Match Play Qualifying for the 1982 US Amateur.  

Next September (2003) we will be hosting the USGA Men's State Team Championship held in 2001 at Hazeltine.

Cheers,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TexasPete

Re: Five par threes
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2002, 01:19:26 PM »
No majors played here, but Caledonia in Pawleys Island, SC has 5 par 3's, and its a fantastic course.  I'd like to see more modern courses start bucking this 4-3's, 4-5's trend.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Five par threes
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2002, 02:15:28 PM »
Up until Rustic Canyon, my home course was Mountain View CC aka Serfas Club in Corona, California and widely recognized as a dog track by most. It has five par 3's five par 5's and each hole plays strategically different then the other as well as a balance of par 3's that would make one Ran Morrissett beam with joy.

I can say that Mountain View is more then likely one of the reasons I appreciate strategy so much. Not that it had a lot of it in the fairways, but more on how to play the holes in consideration to my game, as well as the other weekly devotees of the course.

Of the par 3's, at 130 +/- yard #3, I can vouch for a deft touch off of the tee when trying to place the ball on the green in relation to the pin placement. It is generally the fastest green on the course, make that fastest block of ice.

At the 7th, One can literally play it off of the right hillside and watch the ball rumble to the back pin, and thus taking out any danger on the left side of the hole. I have seen many a GREAT golfer go for the green and ultimately three-putt, while the much higher-handicapper, play off of the hill, one-putt and walk away with the win.

The 190 yard downhill 10th, one of the strongest par 3's I have ever played on a public access course, even the best golfers are subjected to either trying a risky, running cut around the pond instead of trying to hold the small green on the fly. The hole is pure unadulterated evil, and I after years of playing it find that out of respect, on each return visit, that I lay-up with the hopes of walking away with a bogie 4. I know of only two other one shot hole's that exude such respect--the par 3, 5th at Pine Valley and the 16th at Cypress Point.

The 146 yard par 3, 12th isn't a hard hole, only if you miss the green left or right. The green is somewhat canted forward, and every chip to the hole requires playing a break to get it close, double the trouble if you leave it above the hole and the green is playing extremely fast or extremely slow. It is a hole where blind faith--not taking it seriously will ultimately be very costly in both match play and your pocket book!

And then the final one-shotter, the 17th, is 207 yards, but plays more like 225 to a green that looks to be very easy, yet is very hard to hit.

All of the one-shotters run in different directions, hence on a windy day, scoring on them a must, and none of them being anything similar to one another, just ads to the memorability of how strong the holes can really be, if you can look past the esthetic.

Mind you that in all of this, the course is considered a dog track by the SoCal golfing public, including that fact that it comes awefully close to the 91 freeway on a couple of holes. But I still think of the place as my introduction to what strategy is all about.

The place has that rough-at-the-edges appeal, the same one that enamored me when I got to see Merion for the first time. Something that most golfers don't want to understand.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Five par threes
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2002, 07:42:46 PM »
Surprisingly nobody has mentioned Pumpkin Ridge yet so I will.  Both courses there have 5 par 3s.  Witch Hollow also has 5 par 5s, while Ghost Creek only has 4.

There is a good variety between the holes.  At Witch, they are:
#2 is a 175 yarder that is perhaps 5 feet downhill and has a green which slopes to the back left.  There is a large bunker on the left.  If the tee shot carried it to more than just the back corner it could almost be considered a Redan.
#5 is a 211 yarder with a large lake in front and creek to the right.  3 bunkers behind the green and ridge to the left mean missing the green anywhere is bad.  Possibly the most dangerous hole on the course
#10 is a 210 yarder with a green that is covered by a bunker front left.  A small opening on the front right is hard to see because of a bunker that is 40 yards short of the green.
#12 is a great short par 3 of 145 yards.  The kidney shaped green is guarded by a lake front left and a small bunker behind the right.  The front half of the green is sloped severely to the front, while the back half slopes to the back left.  Going long kicks down to the 13th tee and leaves a truely scary shot with the water on the other side.
#15 is 175 yards and features a wide, shallow green with a ridge comes down from the back middle and then turns left across most of the left side of the green.  2 large bunkers guard the front and one on the left.  The hole is slightly uphill and plays just a little longer than the yardage.

Ghost Creek:
#3 is a 180 yard downhill par 3 over a creek with a two tiered green.  The front is fairly narrow and has bunkers on both sides.  The back is wider with the extra area behind the left bunker.

#5 is a 205 yarder with a green that is probably 40 yards wide and split into 3 sections by ridges.  The right side is open and deeper than the rest.  The left two sections are guarded by a deep bunker and wetlands to the left.

#11 is 184 yards to wraps around a small creek that comes in from the right and down in front.  The green is very severely sloped from the left so missing away from the water makes it very tough to get up and down.

#14 is 231 yards and about 30 to 40 feet downhill.  A big green with one small bunker on the left.

#16 is 133 yards slightly downhill to a small green green that is somewhat V shaped.  7 bunkers surround the green.

All in all a good mix.

Also, Pumpkin Ridge has had a US Am, Women's Open and both US Juniors.  Next year it has it's second Women's Open and in 2006 the US Senior Open.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Five par threes
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2002, 05:40:51 AM »
Bedford Springs GC in Bedford, PA has 6 par threes.  Obviously, the course has not hosted any majors.  But, the interesting part is that it is a Donald Ross course (one that I believe was mentioned earlier on the board when daily fee DR courses were talked about) that plays to a par 74 and is 7000 yards long.  The par 5 holes are the 563 yard 4th, the 549 yard slight double dog leg 5th, 494 yard 9th with a streem running through at about 275 yards out, 598 yard 13th, 575 yard 15th, and 575 yard 18th (where the course really needs to look into three removal/trimming as there is about a 25 to 35 yard window that one has to hit through to set to get the ball through to the fairway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

sput

Re: Five par threes
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2002, 05:52:59 AM »
Even more special is when an architect can place the par threes such that they all travel in different directions.  The Wilmington (NC) course, (DRS-1925), is such an example. Plus they vary in yardages (184, 147, 173, 238).  And at $11.00 on weekdays and $12,00 on weekends, WOW.
Sput
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »