Worst Finishing Hole on a Major Course

[tlavin]

Having just witnessed the puke-fest on 18 at Carnoustie, I was wondering what the fabled treehouse feels is the worst finishing hole on a course that has hosted a major.  The 18th at Whistling Straits is sort of a goofy hole, IMHO and the 18th at Olympic is a good hole, but not a classically great finisher.

I'd say that Carnoustie has the worst finishing hole for a major hosting course.

[JESII]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=30392



I didn't even read this thread, just thought it was humorous...

[tlavin]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=30392



I didn't even read this thread, just thought it was humorous...

Agreed.  There's a lid for every pot, I guess, but I think it's a pretty stupid hole...

[David_Elvins]

Terry,

What don't you like about the hole?

[Phil McDade]

Terry:

Was the puke-fest at Carnoustie on 18 any worse than what occured at WF at the US Open in '06?

Let's see -- Carnoustie had a poor decision (driver), and a really choked 5-iron, by Harrington, leading to a double. Romero lipped out a par putt for bogey. Sergio, after a 15-minute wait, hit a semi-lousy 3-iron, a mediocre bunker shot, and lipped out a par putt. In the playoff, both played 18 really well, with Sergio giving himself a decent shot at birdie.

WF had: Monty choking on an 8-iron approach, and a really, really bad three-put, for a double. Furyk, a really good putter, three-putted his way out of a playoff. And, of course, Mickelson's antics.

I can think of a lot worse finishing holes on major courses than Carnoustie.

[tlavin]

It seems to me that the hole is designed like a pretzel, with the burn being the dough and the fairway is supposed to fit in the holes.  I don't think that would win a design contest these days.  It is quirky and it's been there forever and it's in Scotland where golf courses are revered like holy sites in the Middle East, but it just seems like a stupid hole to me, especially as an 18th hole.

Did they puke badly at Winged Foot?  Sure, but that was puking more because of the pressure than the hole itself.  If you like a lot of drama on a finishing hole, then Carnoustie is the place for you, especially if you enjoy the drama of seeing a ball bounce on a walking bridge across a three foot ditch and almost making it, or if you enjoy a bunch of professionals hitting grandstands or pulling it ten feet left and being out of bounds.  Now that's entertainment!

[Geoffrey Childs]

1- NLE - THe old par 3 18th at Congressional

2- #18 at Bethpage Black

[Phil McDade]

Terry:

How exactly was the pressure at WF different than the pressure faced by golfers at Carnoustie? Circumstances seem pretty similar -- golfers executing poorly down the stretch, with the leader of the tournament playing in the last group and failing to execute to claim the trophy.

I'm not sure what separates the two holes, in terms of the merit of their design, and how players performed on them in recent majors.

[Brad Klein]

Terry, seems to me that the worst thing about Carnoustie's last hole, besides it not playing anything like the preceding holes in terms of terrain or character, is that the set-up compromises the hole by lengthening it, squeezing it way right and eliminating the bail-out there by the green, creating that mud-bath of a crossing short of the burn, and then putting up the cheapest garden-variety little Home Depot fence post on the left, 2 steps off the green to which you're hitting a long-iron, and calling it an O.B. boundary.

Other than that, it's fine.

[tlavin]

Terry:

How exactly was the pressure at WF different than the pressure faced by golfers at Carnoustie? Circumstances seem pretty similar -- golfers executing poorly down the stretch, with the leader of the tournament playing in the last group and failing to execute to claim the trophy.

I'm not sure what separates the two holes, in terms of the merit of their design, and how players performed on them in recent majors.

Phil,

I'm no architect, but the tight OB, the serpentine burn and the claustrophobic grandstands for the tournament all seem to combine into a hole that rewards luck as much as skill.  That doesn't sound like good design to me.  In terms of WF or any other major's 18th hole, the pressure is going to be there no matter what, so it seems to me that one doesn't need quirky, wacky, borderline silly design in order to provide drama; the drama will likely appear of its own accord.

[tlavin]

Terry, seems to me that the worst thing about Carnoustie's last hole, besides it not playing anything like the preceding holes in terms of terrain or character, is that the set-up compromises the hole by lengthening it, squeezing it way right and eliminating the bail-out there by the green, creating that mud-bath of a crossing short of the burn, and then putting up the cheapest garden-variety little Home Depot fence post on the left, 2 steps off the green to which you're hitting a long-iron, and calling it an O.B. boundary.

Other than that, it's fine.

They have Home Depots over there?  It sort of looked like a Menard's fence to me.  Rinky-dink, cheesy, jury-rigged, take your pick, it was a bit of an abomination.

[Brad Klein]

Case in point. John Senden, playing 18, hits his 2nd right into the stands, the ball kicks dead left, rolls across the green and heads directly o.b., only to hit one of those silly wicket fence posts and come to a halt.

[tlavin]

Case in point. John Senden, playing 18, hits his 2nd right into the stands, the ball kicks dead left, rolls across the green and heads directly o.b., only to hit one of those silly wicket fence posts and come to a halt.

Thanks for the anecdote.  Heck, I can see stuff like that at the local muni here in Chicago, but it's especially neat to see it on international television on the final hole of the world's best golf tournament.

[Dan Kelly]

... besides it not playing anything like the preceding holes in terms of terrain or character...

Two questions:

What does that mean?

How would you set up the hole?

[JESII]

The quality of the hole has nothing to do with what happens on it on Sunday afternoon of a Major.  It has to do with how it plays the other 3,649 days a decade....

Now that is the truth...thank you counselor.

[Phil McDade]

I don't know -- the monstrosity that is the Old Course Hotel (OB), George Peper's house near the 17th green/18th fairway (also OB), and the old guys gazing out the R & A clubhouse down on the 18th green at TOC (OB as well) don't seem to raise the hackles as Carnoustie's 18th does. In particular, the 17th at TOC, with all kinds of odd angles, tight-to-the-fairway/green OB, and odd results (frequent double bogeys or worse there) don't seem to rub folks the wrong way. And 18 at TOC is pretty one-dimensional -- aim as far left as you can, away from right OB, and hope you can chip and putt your way to a birdie.

Granted, the bleachers and spectator fencing don't make for an attractive hole at Carnoustie, but nothing looks attractive these days at majors in terms of stuff like that -- the white ballon that was the corporate tent at WF that Mickelson bounced his ball off was just as unsightly as those fences along the left side of Carnoustie.

I like Carnoustie's 18th because it demands two very good shots on the final hole of a tough course; I think that's how majors ought to end. Birdies to me should result from three terrific shots; Sergio almost pulled it off in the playoff. Bogies should result from loose or dumb play -- Harrington in regulation being a good example.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not seeing why the 18th is a bad hole.  Its plain and simply very penal, just like the rest of the golf course.

Also agreed 100% with Shivas comments as they pertain to Augusta at 15.  Or is that because it is a par 5 that its OK to put water in front of the green?  If thats the case, lets change #18 to a par 5, and then everyone will love it...

[Jerry Kluger]

It's interesting to contrast #18 at Carnoustie versus #18 at TOC.  Which is a better formula - the most difficult hole on the course or a relatively easy one where birdie and possibly eagle are in the equation?  If I were playing a purely social round of golf I would probably favor TOC just to leave me with a good taste in my mouth.  On the other hand, I think Carnoustie is far more exciting as we watch the players sweat and wonder what to do.  

[Tim Gavrich]

I thought that the 18th at Carnoustie was the centerpiece or one of the most entertaining finishes to a golf tournament that I have seen in a very long time.  Throughout the tournament, I was hoping desperately to see a situation where a player needed a par to win the tournament.  Seeing such a scenario unfold and then watching the playoff was as exciting as tournament golf gets.  Who cares what scores they made on the hole?

If exciting golf is not evidence that it's a good--nay, excellent--finishing hole, then what constitutes "good" or "bad"?

[Dan Kelly]

Hear, hear, Mr. Gavrich.

[David_Elvins]

Terry, seems to me that the worst thing about Carnoustie's last hole, besides it not playing anything like the preceding holes in terms of terrain or character, is that the set-up compromises the hole by lengthening it, squeezing it way right and eliminating the bail-out there by the green, creating that mud-bath of a crossing short of the burn, and then putting up the cheapest garden-variety little Home Depot fence post on the left, 2 steps off the green to which you're hitting a long-iron, and calling it an O.B. boundary.

Other than that, it's fine.

Nice description Brad,

How would you compare it to a hole such as the 18th at TPC Sawgrass - from a tournament playing sense, not a visual sense?

[Bill_McBride]

I don't remember the Carnoustie open prior to 1999, but I was just wondering how many times somebody would have won the Open there had they just committed to laying up on #18 every time and taking double or worse out of the equation.  Just ruminating.  Any thoughts?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Call me crazy, but, I like the hole.

I don't like the proximity of the grandstands and the OB, but, I like what the hole presents to the best golfers in the world.

Is good theatre a function of good architecture ?

Certainly # 18 at TOC can't be considered a great hole ?
Certainly, # 18 has to pale in comparison to # 17 ... No ?

[PThomas]

1- NLE - THe old par 3 18th at Congressional

good call Geoff - what a snoozer that was!

[Brad Klein]

Until 1975 the 18th was a par-5. The year of Watson's first major win the 18th played 448 yards, par-4. By 1999 it was 484, and now 499 yards. You could argue that 448 yards 32 years ago is about 499 today, but I still think the problem with 18 is how compromised the hole is during a championship set up.